I put this in Guildleves and Guildhests only because they are both disused, dull, and underutilized modes of open-world leveling. This thread generally aims to invest the open world with new mechanics that should make "grinding" no longer a grind, but rather an fairly exciting open world experience. The technicals of this involve new forms of direct and indirect mob syncing, improved AIs, additional mechanics such as dynamic spawns, tenting, and day-night cycle interactions. The intended results are given at the end (>>).
I realize these suggestions in the form below are far from polished in how they are explained; it's very much still "in progress".
Nonetheless, I'd like to hear if you've any interest in making a more interesting and valuable "free-form" open world experience, and what ideas you might have on such.
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O. Summary
- "Grinding" has been vastly improved in terms level of interest, rewards, zone longevity, and interactions. This should now offer a viable alternative to FATE zerging and dungeon grinding, and it and Invasions / Missions should replace either as the dominant mode of open-world leveling in Stormblood.
- Dynamic mob camp/pack/clan AI and spawns/reinforcements.
- Numerous mechanics have been added to each zone to make them feel more unique and alive.
- ARR and HW zones expanded and revamped to make use of additional movement mechanics (e.g. climbing, gliding, and swimming), improved mob camps, and added NPC interactions.
- Main cities united and expanded. New sections, such as the ramparts around and the sewers below Ulduh, have been added.
- NPCs added and revised for further player interaction (see section II).
- Zone mechanics and triggers added within the framework of "missions", open-ended complex quests that allow for more freeform strategy and execution.
I. Background Changes and Necessary Supporting Capabilities:
Pseudo-instancing:
Pseudo-instancing is a broad term used to encapsulate any event or system that allows the player to move into another instance, or "channel" without the need for a loading screen, wherein the internal "pseudo-" instance would appear to be part of the larger one and quickly and logically transfers between the internal and external zones. This can be seen in most current MMOs already; XIV is one of the few to use only "hard" instances, each with a load time in order to sort out or reconnect with other players, load event- or player-unique mob sets, etc. By comparison, pseudo-instancing tends to feel far smoother, especially when well-deployed.
Modes and appearances of pseudo-instancing:
1. Generic Channels:
One of the most obvious versions of pseudo-instancing is the "channel" system in (primarily Chinese and Korean) MMOs. Unlike the short-lived Heavensward channels, these can be changed on the fly in order to reach a more or less crowded version of the zone, without but a second or two's delay (dependent only on the time it takes your net and computer to load in the models for the replaced mobs and players).
In all fairness, this can be considered utterly unimmersive, and therefore has very little place in the following suggestions; it can be used as a necessary leveling gimmick, for instance to refresh a mob camp. Its only limitations are purposely developed in order to curtail such effects, such as by installing a cooldown to how often one can swap channels, or creating a deadlock window after engaging in PvP or whenever PvP-flagged.
2. Progressive zones:
As frequently seen in World of Warcraft since Wrath of the Lich King, pseudo-instancing within the context of progressive zones refers to a zone that exists at multiple states, each visible to players at different extents of quest progression therein. These differences may be as small as the movement of NPCs or the addition of certain buildings, or they may utterly and irrecoverably reshape the entire zone (usually the first being more or less aesthetic or purpose-built for the quest leading to the later, primary state).
3. Same zone; unique objects:
These are our leves, and some of our quests. In a way, it is also present in WoW: Legion's upward mob-scaling (matching mob level to player level, rather than the other way around). But generally, in a SZ;UO pseudo-instance, rather than exchanging out units, units are simply added, and these visible only to a particular player.
4. "Cloaked" transitions:
Where the draw-in or load times for the intended changes for the pseudo-zone may be too long to occur instantly (and without drawing notice), pseudo-zones may instead load over the course of a hard-disk cutscene or the like.
For instance, let's say you were working on a quest that required you to signal and wait for a messenger, alluded to be arriving at dusk. Rather than clicking on a circle on the ground, invisible except for its awkward sparkles, and raise your palm toward it for some generic activation sequence, or to stand and look about despite not having signaled the messenger yet (nor it being dusk), you would simply build an actual fire in the area mentioned (no marker necessary), at which point the screen would fade to a cutscene and the pseudo-instance begins. At the end of the cutscene, it would remain dusk and the zone around you would be one visible only to you and the portion of your party who were with you during the transition.
All in all, this isn't that different from the way the game currently works, except that it does less to excuse the lack of true environmental objects and behaviors (e.g. building a fire, or setting up a tent, or firing a flare), and better allows the game to take advantage of them by using them as conditional triggers (right quest, right location). Apart from that, it simply better disguises the transition, loads ONLY the relevant changes, for a shorter overall load time, and where a quest and its cutscene would determine a time of day or a particular weather type, retains those qualities into the following open-world experience.
[Note that these 4 sections are not mutually exclusive; this is, for instance, a progressive zone mechanic, except that it simply returns to the original state after completion.]
5. "Smooth" transitions:
Neither this nor the previous are technical descriptors; I simply use them to divide their likely applications. Whereas a "cloaked" transition cloaks transfer behind a cutscene or the like, a "smooth" transition tends to enter it more gradually, and is more likely to function alike to SZ;UO pseudo-instancing.
For instance, let's say in the course of a quest, or even just through general combat, you are poisoned with a hallucinogenic, or, say, start to see through the illusion that is the "surface" zone into something underneath. In either case, the effects or the units and objects added ought to feel framed in a believable fashion, be they introduced through screen effects or normal zone effects such as fog (reducing computational draw distance, rather than just obscuring things through post-processing).
Additional Movement Mechanics:
There are mostly just three mechanics I really want to touch on here, and one of them is already promised to us. They are in ascending order of importance.
Swimming:
We've already heard that this will be a thing in 4.0. The question is how good will it actually feel, in terms of the apparent physics involved, and perhaps even in the surrounding graphics. Will it be as flat as flight was, wherein we dive only as quickly as we descend, can turn on a dime, and are 'unfettered' by imitative physics like inertia? Personally I just hope there will be semblance of currents, and the ability to use going underwater as a sort of LoS break, or even to deal with mob-specific mechanics, such as avoiding hostile beasts that can detect us by scent.
Gliding:
While it might not be worthwhile to revise mounted mechanics generally, gliding at least I think would be more than worth the effort to install some manner of realistic physics within. (I may also be hoping more than a little that it's implementation into Stormblood zones if or while flight is limited therein would encourage later revision to flight generally, but those are secondary motives.) Gliding is one of the best mechanics by which to both accentuate topography and allow for player inventiveness, including such ingenuity as lets them escape from and vent their frustrations with said topography. It can masterfully polish zones that otherwise might appear scenically fascinating but an underwhelming experience in practice. And that only gets better when you're able to put the player in a highly visual perspective, piloting as per immersive flight physics.
Climbing:
Yes, climbing. The ability to climb ladders, ropes, scale walls and dirty cliff-sides (and perhaps even, through the same dynamic movement systems, allow Dragoons to scale whole cliffs in a single leap). It is resource-intensive, and has to be done right to come off well. But once open world gameplay is able to take advantage of it, it's more than worthwhile. Its use in most MMOs thus far has been only to highlight certain views, musical pieces (think of the starter zone climb in Tera, for instance), almost never to provide new means of exploration. This could be a point of break-through for whoever first crafts it and starts then building for it.
II. Allowing for greater NPC interactions – Deepened Player Histories
To put “deepended player histories” simply, just imagine that your dialogue choices could eventually have an effect on your later experiences. To make that possible, however, the game would first have to remember which choices you took and/or which outcomes you reached.
[By the way, has no one else thought that the combination of variable failure (e.g. you completed the quest, but let a favorite NPC die, when their death wasn't actually preset or necessary) and Echo could make for a horribly nihilistic / masochistic experience? We'll be drawing the line somewhere *before* that. Probably.]
This is mostly aimed to fit into two parallels, detailed below:Party Members, too, Can Join Your Instanced Quests:
You are now able to do zoned quests (now "pseudo-instanced") as a party. In such an event, NPC dialogue now works in such a way as to often speak to you and your party as a group, bringing out that sense of collaboration and inclusion.
(See above.) With the increased capacity for player history data, a NPC may be able to later remember that your best friend outperformed you in just about every way within, say, a specific class-hall task, and later tease you about it or comment on your improvement. Again, the purpose is to bring out a sense of having really played with friends, or simply that this is in fact a living, populated world, a multiplayer experience.
[This also connects well with the added camera-work mentioned later, such as by allowing you to see certain “chase” or “highlight” camera elements through the eyes of a party member, or for self-viewing event cameras to try to see the whole party, rather than only yourself.]
New NPCs, “Pseudo” Factions, and (Hidden) Reputations:
”Pseudo” again… You probably hate the word by now, but it’s still the only one I have accurate to the referent.
A tremendous amount of NPCs have been added or revised in order to have increased involvement with players and within the “spirit of the town” so to speak. These interactions may have tangible benefits, but aren't progressed through any (player-visible) quantitative measure, but (primarily) only by a hidden series of pathed completions. Many, like certain guild masters, can now feel more like mentors and colleagues (and no longer in a sense limited only to the periodic level-unlocked quests), while have their own businesses, motives, and connections. For instance, you might assist a particular merchant frequently through certain quests or unofficial tasks, or even just frequent his establishment, in order to build rapport, for which he might later give you clues for acquisition of rare goods, treasures, etc. Or you might build a relationship with a small group of young Ul'dahn street thieves (a “pseudo-faction” in that your choices with one may affect or unlock certain future opportunities with others) who you can later use in particular quests around town.
III. Mob Scaling through Direct and Indirect Means:
I mentioned before that "upward" scaling refers to potentially increasing mob level and stats to match the level and gear of a given player, while producing proportionately higher rewards upon defeat; "downward" scaling would instead be our current level sync system, wherein the player level, gear, and ability pool is reduced to match mob level. What I suggest is somewhat a combination of the two.
Directly speaking, for an ARR mob to hold any presence against a player more than 10 levels above them, their interaction must be to some degree synced. That said, if one syncs only the player, downward, then there's less interaction to be had in that the player's toolkit is reduced. This might be remedied by scaling only the player's stats, allowing them to keep the bonus damage their toolkit provides compared to other players of the same "level". In this way, secondary stat breakpoints are not broken, and players don't feel unnecessarily inhibited. This is the downward scaling I'd recommend.
The upward portion, however, occurs more indirectly. For starters, I am toying with the idea of allowing engaged allies to benefit from something of a "morale" buff, which can inflate their stats and survivability in order to bring them more in line with the average level of their fellow combatants. That part may be necessary for the second, to ensure that lower-level players aren't one-shot by upscaled mobs produced by stronger players and group performance through—Dynamic spawns and camp/pack/clan mechanics:
This part works two-fold. For starters, mob camps have received increases AI scripting and mechanics in order to ward off and defeat intruders, which will require increased coordination from attackers in order to breach or circumvent. Their rewards upon defeat, of course, have been proportionately increased, and not just statically; the further players progress into a certain mob camp, clan, or pack, the more scripts activate, increasing difficulty and reward. Secondly though, they may also call upon or otherwise summon reinforcing mobs. In some cases, these may appear in a more traditional, out-of-nowhere fashion. In others, defenders may guard the summoners as they attempt to bring in a boss, or, once signaled, reinforcements will start arriving within a set time. Whatever the case, this allows for dynamically up-scaled mobs, reactive to the players' levels, gear, and even composition or success at previous hidden challenges. In this way, almost any mob camp, if focused, can work similarly to a freeform FATE. However, this is still best paired with the suggested zone and NPC revamps below.
[“Clan” mechanics refers to allied packs or mob mechanics. Killing off one camp may incur the wrath of another, sending mobs after your party through pseudo-instancing, or bolstering their defenses server-wide.]
IV. “Missions”:
Each expansion may have a slightly different twist on the application of “missions”, but if simply defined these occur usually in a pseudo-instanced open world and are generally fairly complex in that rather than requiring a series of exact tasks, they simply imbed a series of triggers available for use to complete an overlying task. Put simply, they’re rather free-form, and benefit highly from both general and specific strategy. They work, essentially, as an introduction and framework to in-zone mechanics. Many of them also have multiple degrees of completion, resulting in near-proportionately increased rewards.
Their scope can vary immensely, and their included mechanics, though usually added the game only at the start of the mission (or through parallels tied to the mission), rarely fade out completely after completion.
One mission—for instance, one given by young thieves in Ul’duh in order to see if they’re willing to have you—might ask only that you steal 5000 gil, but in actuality, rather than merely cutting purses, you can assign other thieves to steal a portion of that for you, scalp prices on goods, or even take commission on shady deals. These mechanics will remain thereafter, here and there, as part of the “spirit of the town”, as will the individual NPCs. Note that some might not be too happy with you.
Another might ask that you scout for Imperial forces across a given zone or sector thereof (assuming a very large zone), without being seen. Presumably, simply gaining a player view of each area therein (such as if there were a hefty number of hidden viewpoints) would do the trick. But, so would finding an imperial presence anywhere in the region, to which end you might ask around for any signs of Imperials. If you wanted to take that further, you could even ambush and kill (before any signals can be raised) a small Imperial scouting camp in order to try to find a map of Imperial movements.
Finally, a Stormblood Main Scenario Quest may ask you to, in no great detail, take over an Imperial base. The ideas that could go into that task could easily fill several quests, and many quests made in parallel may in fact give ideas as to how you might accomplish that, as can other players. Note that although that would technically be a quest, it creates new triggers and culminates in a pseudo-instanced experience, and as such can also here be labelled a “mission.”
V. [Optional] Day-Night Cycle – Parallels and Implications:
One core element of many open-world RPGs, and to a degree even previous iterations of Final Fantasy, is the idea that mob types may swap out over the course of a given day, or according to different weather systems. FFXIII, for instance, took advantage of the deus ex aspect of the artificial world setting to allow the player at times to choose which mobs they would fight while progressing down a given road by changing the weather or light, in order to avoid particular challenges, or seek out their rewards. Now, while that might hold some possibility for certain Allagan themed areas, for whose experimental subjects the real and artificial biomes might seem one and the same, the intention for the main world is primarily to see some use in cloaked transitions—bringing out the idea of a night raid, for instance, or an urgent escort mission whose caravan only just arrives at dusk and must carry on through the undead-plagued night. Now, in that sense, it wouldn’t necessarily be anything more than a matter of the pseudo-instance itself, but with all these things I want the highlighting events to seem to come from seemingly universal concerns, concepts, or mechanics. To that end, I’d like to see these mob type replacements occur naturally over the course of the day-night cycle, such as through undead moving from their seemingly hidden barrow downs over a wider region, dire wolves moving out to hunt, or even new botany or mining nodes becoming available, etc. With these should arise new opportunities for hunting and gathering.
On Tents:
The basic idea for tents was to allow for players, amid a revised open world (much more relevant back in 1.x’s larger world), to have a bit of added functionality that would better aid their sense of immersion and party play than it would necessitate the conveniences given. For instance, while there might be a small experience rate gain (e.g. the immediate application of accumulated bonus XP) attached to tenting in addition to providing a closer sanctuary, and while the ability to set your tent as a home point would certainly be useful for grinding a dangerous spawning zone, these shouldn’t be so huge or costless a matter as to make tenting obligatory. But how then do you warrant the complexity of implementing a famous RPG and FF system that is yet unseen in MMOs if its benefits can’t amount to so much as to make it a requirement? That’s tricky, for sure.
Trickier still is the idea of aligning tenting with the day-night cycle. While I don’t want to detract from the larger group implications that these cycles may add, such as through FATEs or mob camp raids, I can’t help but also consider applications for manually adjusted day-night cycling through tenting. For tenting to feel like a fleshed out mechanic, or essentially to even warrant its being a thing, it would need to be able to provide a rest period. But for a rest period to feel as if it has actually occurred, the day-night cycle would have to be advanced, which would then put you temporarily out of sync with any other players. The first issue of course would be how one even gets back, and second would be to figure out how not to let this be abused, the combination of which may make this too costly to be in any way worthwhile, but if those two issues can be succinctly settled then this could add a good deal of opportunity and immersion to hunting parties, in the sense of (improved) generic open-world grinding and gathering (and perhaps even the marked hunts kind as well, if they get looped into the day-night cycle dynamics). Simple to say though, I doubt I can warrant a tent system without a day-night application unless zones were vastly increased in size. With the systems connected though, it could have hefty implications for “deadline-d” quests and events, and chronological story-telling.
>> Redesign Philosophy for Zones—ARR & HW:
The main point of retroactive redesign here would be to push a sense of scope, ingenuity, and involvement, primarily through the improvements and additions to Mob scaling and AI and camp, pack, or clan behaviors, faction and pseudo-factions, additional environmental mechanics, and their cumulative effect of stronger open world threats, challenges, and opportunities.
Imagine a Southern Thanalan, for instance, where the Immortal Flames, the Ala Mhigan refugees, the U tribe, and the Ring of Ash all played much more integral parts, where you could dive into the river below, climb up to cliffside hideouts of the northeastern cultists or the Ala Mhigan rebels, make use of the old temple tunnels, and encounter real challenge in storming Zahar’ak.
Or an Outer La’Noscea where you can gradually, as a player or in a party with a progressed player, uncover additional kobold tunnels in order to slip into and through U’Ghamoro, where some narrow paths starting from The Long Climb continue past the Hermit’s Hovel to circle up the mountain, and where you can actually take the surveillance balloon from Camp Overlook to survey Kobold or Sagahin movements, or even get a first look at the Wanderer’s Palace (which you can now actually, visibly, take a boat to).
This doesn’t only apply to life outside the cities, of course. In fact, the main cities, likely to be recombined into one zone each with the removed support of the PS3, could each become a sort of leveling zone in themselves. Uldah, for instance, could introduce NPCs along the ramparts and mobs into the sewers below. The Goblet could more closely seem an extension of the Uldah’n city proper, with the ability to even explore right up atop its giant windmill, etc. Limsa Liminsa may now pathable docked ships, and the ability to zip down the many ropes hanging from the isle-columns. New content-carrying and ambience driving NPCs have been added to each. So go and explore. There are extrinsic rewards, and far more that are intrinsic as well.
>> Design Philosophy for Zones—Stormblood & Beyond:
The idea here is to set things up for the movement of power over the expansion’s storyline, and to lay the seeds and capabilities for free-form, large-scale warfare. That may sound like a painfully grand ambition, but the individual mechanics that can make that possible are actually individually simple, and their interactions can and should be gradually and intuitively introduced. My hope is that Stormblood will be the first expansion to do many things, and I’m not just referring to the retroactive changes I’ve suggested above for ARR and HW zones. I hope that Stormblood will be the first to have a not-quite linear Main Scenario Questline. I hope it will be the first where we can choose with whom we want to side, and how we want to go about executing our goals, and really connect with certain NPCs. I want it to be the first to make us ponder the ethics of the whole thing, to drive us into dark and the grit and the smoke and the dawns and the excitement too. But that’s going to happen with a stale rehash of Heavensward’s flat camera-work, limited interactions, and probably not its flatly linear storytelling. It needs something more, and it needs to feel driven on that account.
Alternate (Open World) Means of Leveling. Ideas?
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02-12-2017, 12:39 PMShurrikhanAlternate (Open World) Means of Leveling. Ideas?
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02-16-2017, 11:19 AMGalen_Malchome
I wish they would improve the xp granted to Battle Leve's. I was able to get from 50-51 with gathering Level's in about 1/4 the time or less than it took on a battle class. Considering there are so many jobs I don't like that it takes 3-5 hours per level if not longer and there are not nearly enough quests in either sets of content ARR or Heavensward to actually level 2 jobs. Fates and dungeons are nice filler but unreliable especially when the majority of the playerbase in a server have gone beyond the current relevant point.
Also on a slightly different but related topic all of our jobs and abilities have a "Potency" rating for level scaling, can we just keep our abilities unlocked even if other things get level synced. It really screws with mucle memory and rotation when some abilities are working an others not when bouncing between leveling dungeons. -
02-16-2017, 01:15 PMShurrikhanThis is essentially what I was aiming for with the revised level syncing (granted, my examples above were purely for open world scenarios). Unless World PvP comes into the mix, I don't especially mind that a higher level "level 30" would be stronger by retaining the added ability, buff, and combo potency bonuses of his or her original level's toolkit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galen_Malchome
If anything, you could simply reduce the bonus potency (any ability towards 0 and any combo finisher towards the skill before it) and (de)buff strength based on distance to acquisition level, such that the keystrokes are identical to pre-synced play, but the effect of the retained toolkit isn't as heavy, reducing the gap (and even giving an excuse not to use the extra tool if you would rather not bother for the time being).
My major goal here was to make the free-form "grinding" (killing of mobs and mob camps by strategies of your own choice) more interesting than, and able to replace, the additional systems meant specifically for grinding like FATEs and Leves. If you've ever seen any of the 1.x "Missions", however, those are fairly similar to what I'd like to see for leves. There were also Chocobo Escort missions (although rather unpolished) another style of leve that was available periodically from each camp that was sometimes a bit longer and more interesting than your typical leve as well that were decent enough directions to move grindables like ARR-HW leves towards, should ambitions cap at mild improvements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galen_Malchome