Small but consistent issue with ilvl/Tanks

This isn't a massive issue but I figured they could apply a one time forever fix on the issue.

Say you get a minimum or near ilvl tank, and then you get everyone else who's played the content for a while and maxing the accepted ilvl (like a story mode dungeon that the tank needs but everyone is there cause roulette). The amount of aggro the other members can generate actually becomes rather substantial compared to the tank.

I've had this happen a few times, whether it was because I or someone else leveled it for the first time or just got to story content everyone else had long passed. You have to drop a lot of interesting gameplay and just focus on trying to stay on top of aggro because everyone else (if they're actually trying) is going to be viaing for first place. It's also a bad way for new players to learn as sometimes people just decide to tank for the tank on lower level dungeons cause "lol, im not going to reduce my aggro generation cause you're new - I can tank it too anyways".

Once you're not near the scraping bottom of the ilvl its not really a problem unless you're actually playing poorly but this is a reoccurring issue through leveling and gear leveling. Like if you're a brand new tank leveling and everyone else is in the roulette with you capped at maximum.

It would be incredibly easy for others to peel aggro from you and very likely prevents you from doing large pulls that the others want you to do because you have to make sure you can hold the monsters.

So my suggestion is to set an expected ilvl on DF content and then lower the enmity generated by players above that by a graduating %. OR base it off the difference from tank and other players (so specific players have different enmity modifications based on their difference). Now it shouldn't be so strong of a change that the tank doesn't have to think about aggro anymore, but the difference between ilvl newbie and ilvl overachieving enmity generation is significant and can make levels less enjoyable/even traumatizing lol. People might complain at someone trying out tank when most of the issue is coming from people not willing to adjust to lower geared tank, and expect them to perform magic. You could also just make the maximum ilvl power lower but I think that is a bad solution because people will dislike those areas even more, and feel annoyed they work hard for power they can't even use.

It's the worst imo when I was leveling Paladin since his aggro generation especially on AoE is not as good as other tanks (Paladin is the hardest to level imo, other tanks are very easy to level but get better rotations later lol), but it did happen once when I just came back. Luckily the group I was with was very accepting that I didn't want to lose aggro on big pulls and besides one mechanic where I couldn't stand near the boss and the ranged kept DDing hard I never lost aggro (I kept provoke in mind and was using my 1 2 3 a lot more than I wanted). No wipes or anything and the challenge was interesting, however I can say that the bars were riding my coat tails incredibly hard and I feel the difficulty is backwards for people who are actually new or not ready for "hard mode tanking".

I know I'm sort of petitioning it to be easier for players, but basically the better geared everyone else is in comparison to you then the harder your job becomes and this most likely happens only when you're new - when it should be the other way around. When you're new it shouldn't be so hard to get into, but continue to be enjoyable as you become less new.

Anyway, I see this as a reoccurring bracket that will always be there - even if shortly, and think that for those who are leveling up their tank and want to get into it might be turned off by players thinking "why do I have to slow down, why don't you generate more enmity!?" and you're literally only using your top tier enmity skills. Like I was 10ilvls above the minimum in a dungeon and even then had a monk that was like 90% of second aggro bracket (close to getting aggro) the entire fight and I was weaving in A LOT of rage of halone and ofc the other skills like CoS and shield swipe. If I had went to the damage rotations instead I would have easily lost aggro. However a normal day in tanking is, do one heavy aggro rotation and never think about it again (unless they need strength down) - do the DD rotations now lol. So I feel these iLvL differences are the exception and their the exception at the worst moments (when you're new to an area, or just new in general).

Thank you :)

(And if there is a change just make sure it isn't so strong that new players no longer think to learn about aggro haha, just tune it back to more regular day).

tl;dr: Using Risvertashi's post, as fighting the party is a really well said way of putting it~

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

This is true pre-50. But at 50 you can have the sort of situations where a tank with an i45 weapon is trying to hold aggro against people sync'd to 130. And again at 60, now. It's not exactly a new problem but it hasn't gotten much attention...

An undergeared, fresh 50/60 DPS doesn't do much damage but can still complete content. Tanks, on the other hands, fight their party members so being behind in gear really hurts.

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there is a small bracket of time that due to leveling / ilvl difference in your team that your job becomes unusually difficult and less interesting rotations, and expectations from players don't change so you're bound to disappoint. This issue goes away as soon as you even slightly catch up, so many long standing tanks won't remember or may have not even experienced it (leveled up/played with everyone at similar ilvls) but for new players or returning they'll run by the issue again (shortly, unless they don't grow in ilvls that quickly). This issue also only really happens when you have other players performing well in terms of DPS but perhaps not using their enmity reduction tools. So if you're new and everyone over ilvls you but no one is performing well, then you won't really notice it either.

At lower levels the main mistake Paladin's make, that I have observed, is under-using Flash (plus Riot Blade to keep mana up). At low levels, Flash can pretty much keep up with anything the DPS can do. And it gets better once you have Shield Oath, too. Once you have Shield Oath, Some Flash lead-instead followed by cycling through targets with enmity combo should be enough, at least in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Lyraele

At lower levels the main mistake Paladin's make, that I have observed, is under-using Flash (plus Riot Blade to keep mana up). At low levels, Flash can pretty much keep up with anything the DPS can do. And it gets better once you have Shield Oath, too. Once you have Shield Oath, Some Flash lead-instead followed by cycling through targets with enmity combo should be enough, at least in my experience.

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Oh yeah, and I try to help out new tanks when I can but you can easily out do a few flashes if you wanted (given the right job, and level range - and ofc the main point of this thread, the ilvl diff. issue that sometimes pops up). Like as BLM I could peel the entire group from a low level Paladin, I stopped as soon as I noticed that and calmed down but it was like OH HI GUYS. And it wasn't for the lack of flash, I know Paladin so I don't start aoeing until I see they grab them all first - even after he started to try and do many flashes it didn't really matter.

It gets a lot better and easier for Paladin with shield oath yes :)

But yeah you're right, no flash tries to hit each one one by one, nothing sticks - should talk to Paladin and say "try to grab everything first :3" lol. Main point of this thread isn't a tank doing something wrong though, more like the massive difference makes doing something right a lot harder and in the situation where this happens its actually the least opportune time to have it happen (new players being giving the greatest burden beyond just being new, thats a bit off imo).

Also just to add though, using flash multiple times in a row is an incredibly underwhelming feeling. AoE no damage attack with a silly animation you cast multiple times.. choo choo! hehe. Would be nice to get some sort of change to the aoe management, for Paladin at least.

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Originally Posted by Lyraele

At lower levels the main mistake Paladin's make, that I have observed, is under-using Flash (plus Riot Blade to keep mana up). At low levels, Flash can pretty much keep up with anything the DPS can do. And it gets better once you have Shield Oath, too. Once you have Shield Oath, Some Flash lead-instead followed by cycling through targets with enmity combo should be enough, at least in my experience.

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This is true pre-50. But at 50 you can have the sort of situations where a tank with an i45 weapon is trying to hold aggro against people sync'd to 130. And again at 60, now. It's not exactly a new problem but it hasn't gotten much attention...

An undergeared, fresh 50/60 DPS doesn't do much damage but can still complete content. Tanks, on the other hands, fight their party members so being behind in gear really hurts.

One of the biggest issues for tanks that I have seen is focusing on one target, maybe doing a flash here and there (but usually not) and not using any aoes. They just expect the dps to follow their numbers and keep their dps low enough. I have even had tanks tell me to not use bane on smn or fire 2 on blm because it's too hard because they don't want to deal with mobs that are not the one they have targeted currently. They want me to follow the 1 2 and 3 marks they took more time putting up then we used taking the mobs down.

It's not always the dps or heals, sometimes its just the tanks. And I have seen tanks that are severely under geared compared to myself and the other dps in 4 man dungeons hold hate flawlessly because they know how to utilize their skills properly so it's not always an ilvl issue.

You also have the tanks who just put on gear cause they can, the amount of tanks who come to dungeons in mnd, int, dex or str gear just so they can hit ilvl or even lvls 1, 5 and 8 gear lvl 30+ dungeons, is staggering. So it's not necessarily an ilvl issue alone.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

One of the biggest issues for tanks that I have seen is focusing on one target, maybe doing a flash here and there (but usually not) and not using any aoes. They just expect the dps to follow their numbers and keep their dps low enough. I have even had tanks tell me to not use bane on smn or fire 2 on blm because it's too hard because they don't want to deal with mobs that are not the one they have targeted currently. They want me to follow the 1 2 and 3 marks they took more time putting up then we used taking the mobs down.

It's not always the dps or heals, sometimes its just the tanks. And I have seen tanks that are severely under geared compared to myself and the other dps in 4 man dungeons hold hate flawlessly because they know how to utilize their skills properly so it's not always an ilvl issue.

You also have the tanks who just put on gear cause they can, the amount of tanks who come to dungeons in mnd, int, dex or str gear just so they can hit ilvl or even lvls 1, 5 and 8 gear lvl 30+ dungeons, is staggering. So it's not necessarily an ilvl issue alone.

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Definitely aware of tanks not doing as well as they can - tanks should be letting you aoe so I cry hearing that lol, but this thread is specifically about the ilvl issue :P

You CAN manage with the ilvl difference if you're actually really good at your class but in many scenarios it'll be managing a hot nuke due to boss mechanics making you run around and certain jobs never letting up. Like before I left I did Twintania and all that fun stuff, so when I came back and experienced this I wasn't going to let the issue crash our party but there were many scenarios where the 100+ ilvl difference was making it so I had to do every little thing possible and sometimes provoke to get things in order. We didn't wipe, but I know for sure if you're just a learning tank and you didn't do the end game of 50 cause there would be no reason (you're going to 60/70!) then this situation would be like .. WHAT ?!

This issue doesn't happen all the time, its a very specific scenario but it is a reoccurring scenario that will not go away until addressed. This issue is really bad at power creep points, as Risvertasashi pointed out.

So yes, I am aware tanks may have other issues - but SE can't solve bad choices, mostly.

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Originally Posted by Lyraele

At lower levels the main mistake Paladin's make, that I have observed, is under-using Flash (plus Riot Blade to keep mana up). At low levels, Flash can pretty much keep up with anything the DPS can do. And it gets better once you have Shield Oath, too. Once you have Shield Oath, Some Flash lead-instead followed by cycling through targets with enmity combo should be enough, at least in my experience.

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I found this while levelling paladin, for what it's worth. A DPS synced down to my level advised me to always Flash two or three times in order to hold aggro, and while that works, it also... looks kind of dumb? As a paladin, I want to use my weapon skills, not just Flash all the time.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Oh yeah, and I try to help out new tanks when I can but you can easily out do a few flashes if you wanted (given the right job, and level range - and ofc the main point of this thread, the ilvl diff. issue that sometimes pops up). Like as BLM I could peel the entire group from a low level Paladin, I stopped as soon as I noticed that and calmed down but it was like OH HI GUYS.

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Indeed. Levelling black mage or any high-burst class makes it very easy to take aggro, and it's not because the tank is playing badly. The tank is doing fine. Their tools just aren't enough to match the DPS' aggro generation at lower levels.

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Originally Posted by UAnchovy

Indeed. Levelling black mage or any high-burst class makes it very easy to take aggro, and it's not because the tank is playing badly. The tank is doing fine. Their tools just aren't enough to match the DPS' aggro generation at lower levels.

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As WAR or DRK I never had that issue though, the aoe enmity plus damage was enough and felt better than flash haha (although I must admit I haven't leveled warrior or dark knight through the powercreep gaps of 50/60, so it might become an issue). To be clear I mean losing hate no matter what you do when there is an ilvl gap, I still noticed that things are really close even though they were easier - unusually close (like holding hate in a EX / end raid is easier). Was worse on Paladin though. Perhaps its always Paladin issue while low level + leveling lol.

As Paladin I could use like one flash if the group wasn't synced down to the dungeon but if they were then it was flash party, and fairly tight (I can see new Paladins not seeing this step right away, and not wanting to do this as well - cause its boring lol). So I agree that just because they CAN peel doesn't mean the tank is bad, but I would suggest that a Paladin could probably hold hate even if a burst class tried if they're not the lowest lvl/ilvl in the group - except feel very bored doing a flash disco (like when I go back to lvl 20 sycned, it's no longer a thing). And making the ilvl gap less of an issue would make flash party less of a thing I think, although I still feel Paladin's aoe management could be made more exciting.

If that was confusing basically = agree :P

I remember a few days ago in Halitali normal when I was trying to level my gladiator there was a black mage who kept taking aggro off me, despite me being very excessive with Flash and Savage Blade combo. No matter what I did, even in the few dungeons before it, I couldn't consistently keep enmity nor dent the aggro that they had built up.

I wouldn't know of a solution to the item sync problem, mainly because it could end up making old content very slow and boring because of losing power.

As warrior and paladin, I can say that it's not a huge issue. I've been relatively undergeared during story content on both jobs with parties brimming with max ilvl DPS. It all comes down to just pounding the AoE enmity generators a few more times and making sure you pick out the target the DPS has decided to focus on (not always the one you mark or start with). For paladin, riot blade keeps mana up for more flashing. For warrior, you can cross-class flash and mix it with overpower to lighten up the load on TP resource. I assume dark knight has it's own tricks to even it out.

The only tricky situation is when two high powered DPS decide to focus different targets. You either have to really lay on that AoE DPS or interleave your enmity combo (ie, alternate which targets get hit with #2 and #3). For single targets, tank's enmity multipliers are extremely generous. I don't think it would be possible for DPS to overtake you if you're using the enmity combo and your tank stance.

I do think it's kind of sad that older content is overly trivialized by high ilvl syncs. This seems to be an issue with lv 50 dungeons. Prior to that, I actually got to learn mechanics, but hitting the lv 50 stuff, every boss has become 'ignore almost all mechanics and burn'. I'm missing out on learning those mechanics. When I hit 60 content, I'm going to have some catching up to do. Nobody wants the pain of a minimum ilvl sync run. There should be a happy medium, like a min+20% ilvl synch for a double bonus or such.... of course, that would split the DF pool, so maybe ignoring mechanics on the lv 50 dungeons is acceptable, but sad.