A Paladin Proposal

For this tier, I've decided to move back to Paladin after a year hiatus from the job. After playing both DRK and WAR pretty extensively and getting a feel for them, PLD feels bland in comparison. Paladin's utility only takes it so far in it's level of fun for me and I think a lot people who have played and enjoyed the other tanks would agree.

My idea is to accentuate the Sword n' Board feel of a Paladin by implementing a second global cool-down for the job. How would this work? Just like weapon-skills, 'shield-skills' would function exactly the same, only on a timer of their own and have more utility-based effects. Things like stun, debuffs, and maybe even an AoE could be attached to the shield's GCD while simultaneously attacking with your sword's GCD.

I really enjoy the class fantasy and feel of a paladin and I would like to see that expanded upon in the coming expansion (that's what they do, isn't it?) This is just another 'what-if' to throw on the pile and brainstorm with.

I...somewhat doubt that will happen, barring a massive overhaul of the Paladin. If nothing else, Shield Bash is (obviously) a shield skill, and having what's basically an off-GCD stun seems kinda...

Debuffs being attached to the shield seems somewhat nonsensical, and there isn't really anything that putting them on a second GCD would do that having them oGCD would not, bar letting them have a hilariously fast recast time. Same with AoE, though they do have a benefit of being on the GCD.

There's also the problem of having them interrupt sword skill animations and, of course, the problem of Paladin guzzling down TP like it was one day away from being expired.

The suggestion's been thrown about before, but just keep in mind that unless the Shield GCD is especially long, it will just end up working like an oGCD, and if it is especially long, it will end up forcing you to choose between using Shield Swipe (assuming it's moved to the shield GCD) and Shield Bash readiness. Should its animation locks be extended, then it will just end up feeling like an Empyreal Arrow you cannot optimize. Alternatively, let's say they have a longer animation lock only when followed by Sword Moves (can rapidly shift from a Swipe to a Bash, but there's a bit more delay in going to a Fast Blade, etc., similarly to if a full GCD had been used). At that point what you have isn't so much a second GCD system as simply a new way of performing combos, wherein moves within the combo recover from the GCD faster than those outside the combo, allowing for faster sequential action as part of the combo benefit.

The first issue is that you'd need at least a decent variety of Shield skills. For instance, if Shelltron were moved to a no-CD forced block channel that absorbs up to X damage via blocking and uses some alternate charging resource and renamed simply to Guard, then you'd actually have some decisions to be made between pacifying via Swipe, stunning via Bash, and blocking via Guard. Minor added complexity.

The second is that these Shield choices would have to be relatively frequent or regularly accessible choices. This could be done by removing the on-block requirement from Swipe, instead improving it or refreshing its cooldown under that condition, and such things as the above "Guard" (Shelltron replacement) example.

Third would be that those choices would need to be viable, but tactically distinct from sword choices. For instance, let's say you take out the rigid combos. Rather, any Sword or Shield combo initiator or bridge generate benefits for either, to be consumed on the next in line. Neither cancels combos for the other (except maybe Shield Bash). Alternating the two allows for greater build-up, while using one side back-to-back allows for more immediacy of effect. Swipe now absorbs a portion of enemy damage, doubled if against you or whatnot as not to be too powerful of OT support, for instance, and Bash can potentially be used as a nuke hit, while Riot Blade or Bash can be turned into a knock-back, and certain abilities can cause an AoE Swipe, etc.

And then there's the issue of resources. Due to the second GCD system, a PLD would have a potentially absurd rate of fire, depending on tuning. Resources would likely have to be spent to compensate, limiting longer term potential, but that would still leave it bursty only to fall into lethargic TP starvation. And this is the tank that already most suffers from TP issues. Alternatively, you'd have to develop a new resource entirely that doesn't act as a simple T-3 minutes to 'inevitable disappointment'. Skill Speed adjustments to remove oversights, similar to the recent Sword Oath change, could certainly help, but I'd imagine the second system would be necessary as well.


All in all, if you want a more interesting style of play, this would be only one of many ways to go about it. You could always adjust the regular rotations, swap out certain skill effects, and so forth for improvement in tactical feel, urgency, skill-cap, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The second is that these Shield choices would have to be relatively frequent or regularly accessible choices. This could be done by removing the on-block requirement from Swipe, instead improving it or refreshing its cooldown under that condition, and such things as the above "Guard" (Shelltron replacement) example.

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Wouldn't it be easier to put Guard on current GCD, so you'd have to chose wether you do damage, stun, gain group enmity or activate your short-duration 20%+ physical damage reduction ?

Suddenly, PLD would really be the tank that will do less damage on the field for higher mitigation.

Parry could be adjusted to increase damage reduction on a block, Sheltron would just make your next block recovers MP and Bulwark would increase your mitigation by a small amount...or maybe recovering TP with each block for its duration. You could even get rid of shield items altogether and mix them with the sword, since block rate would be irelevant and block strength would be fused with with parry.

As a crazy idea, I'd even go as far as to remove damage modifiers (Dealt and received) from Shield Oath and instead make it doubles the damage reduction on bocks. No more passive mitigation and you'd reduce your damage simply by spending GCD on blocks.

Paladin as a job isn't bad. the problem is it doesn't really fit the way content is designed and that makes most of its utility almost useless.

in a party that functions with even "mild" proficiency for example cover is useless so is divine veil. even clemency. often a fairy / regen alone is over healing. most stuff is immune to pacification which makes shield swipe almost worthless, and all dps spam the hell outta stuns which makes shield bash just as useless. so in a remotely functional party half of a paladins toolkit is worthless.

divine veil putting a pretty good shield up on the party sounds cool but often it doesn't matter. generally a half decent group is gonna smash that dps check so fast that the damage from the bosses ultimate will be brushed off with hardly a scratch. and if you fail the dps check no amount of shileds are going to save you.... so divine veil ends up being almost worthless.

Paladin is a defensive class but virtually all the games content is built entirely around dps. so defence doesn't matter...
in a way the fact that tanks can spend so much time in dps stance emphasises how insignificant defence is, and the amount of time healers spend in cleric only emphasises it even more

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Wouldn't it be easier to put Guard on current GCD, so you'd have to chose wether you do damage, stun, gain group enmity or activate your short-duration 20%+ physical damage reduction ?

Suddenly, PLD would really be the tank that will do less damage on the field for higher mitigation.

Parry could be adjusted to increase damage reduction on a block, Sheltron would just make your next block recovers MP and Bulwark would increase your mitigation by a small amount...or maybe recovering TP with each block for its duration. You could even get rid of shield items altogether and mix them with the sword, since block rate would be irrelevant and block strength would be fused with with parry.

As a crazy idea, I'd even go as far as to remove damage modifiers (Dealt and received) from Shield Oath and instead make it doubles the damage reduction on bocks. No more passive mitigation and you'd reduce your damage simply by spending GCD on blocks.

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That's the thing though. I wasn't imagining a turtle spec tank from what I suggested — at most a tank that has that option more so than the other tanks, but would still be about as capable of damage-dealing. I wrote that it'd use some internal limiter as not to let Guard constantly be an option. But at that point I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of whatever Sword and Board procs or mechanics that might enter into the mix to better weave it in. Which GCD system, if any, it'd lie on is mostly irrelevant to me. I'm just looking for immediate and reliable mitigation options that could stand as something a bit unique among the three tanks, and would likely be introduced much earlier on. (In my example, Guard replaced Shelltron. You'd likely see an adjusted Bulwark (e.g. "Bastion") take the PLD 52 ability slot, instead.)

I would assume you'd simply convert excess block rate into strength. I would hope the same would be done with Raw Intuition for Warrior as well.

I can hardly call a removal of damage modifiers from Shield Oath a crazy idea when I've been looking for something to emulate the stylish offensive use of shields of the KotR ever since my first Vault run. Sword overwhelms you and cuts you down to size; Shield thwarts you, beats you to a pulp. Different ways of serving either function.

The problem is that they stick to the defensive aesthetic of the Paladin/holy knight archetype. And while that is the most common adaptation of the paladin in MMOs there's also the fact that they can be crusading holy knights.

If SE is going to maintain this core design concept of everything being about DPS checks and the most effective tactic to be push moar dps then at least bake in some nice holy wrath types of retributive powers and attacks. Shield Empowerments, retributive flashes of light/thorns (i know this isn't totally offensive but a shield/stance that also gives thorns/reflective dmg is better than a stright defensive stance), etc... you know the standard offensively minded stuff you see on paladins elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I can hardly call a removal of damage modifiers from Shield Oath a crazy idea when I've been looking for something to emulate the stylish offensive use of shields of the KotR ever since my first Vault run. Sword overwhelms you and cuts you down to size; Shield thwarts you, beats you to a pulp. Different ways of serving either function.

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The "crazy" part is more the complete removal of passive mitigation from PLD, and the reliance only on CD to mitigate magical damage.

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Originally Posted by Khubla_Kha

The problem is that they stick to the defensive aesthetic of the Paladin/holy knight archetype. And while that is the most common adaptation of the paladin in MMOs there's also the fact that they can be crusading holy knights.

If SE is going to maintain this core design concept of everything being about DPS checks and the most effective tactic to be push moar dps then at least bake in some nice holy wrath types of retributive powers and attacks. Shield Empowerments, retributive flashes of light/thorns (i know this isn't totally offensive but a shield/stance that also gives thorns/reflective dmg is better than a stright defensive stance), etc... you know the standard offensively minded stuff you see on paladins elsewhere.

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PLD with Ice spikes buff in XI was pretty kewl.

As much as I have loving and sentimental feelings for PLD and really try to convince myself not to stop playing it I share the general sentiments of the OP. I do love the thought behind paladin because I love traditional sword classes (DRK and their very fantasy-like swords are cool too but I prefer the PLD way), the idea to focus on defense and the knight theme but the playstyle seems very bland and unchallenging to me; the well-established state of the art that they also lack the viability of a WAR in some departments aside.

(I also have the feeling that they are not very self-proficient because their dmg is relatively low which makes solo content take quite long. Also, in solo play their defense can be broken when their buffs are on cooldowns and you don't spam stoneskin to keep a damage sponge up (cross class heal is so minimal on me that I just drop it in soloplay - clemency is ok but not available for anyone lower than 56?) which makes everything take even longer. Though the damage is my main focus here. I mean it's not that solo content is not doable but it is certainly less fluent and prolongued and becomes somewhat draining.)

I would welcome some kind of overhaul as long as the defense theme is not completely dropped. Just something to make the playing experience more fun and make PLD as effective as WAR in its own way. The shield GCD seems like a nice idea already because you have two timers to keep in mind and play accordingly. I know it's unlikely but one can dream. :/