Learning Party in PF

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{contentName} Ex Learning Party - NO NEW PEOPLE! Must know entire fight. Ask question = kick. i210 req. Don't join if you've only watched a video and haven't cleared. Lootmaster.

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I've noticed this sort of thing a lot, lately (usually with a single DPS player and no one else). Isn't a learning party supposed to be one where you teach new people and/or learn the fights together? Why are people so opposed to showing newbies the ropes? When I was a raid leader in WoW, I would have killed for PUGs who'd watched/read guides, regardless of experience--so why is it so much more restrictive here?

I actually got into a discussion with the host of one such party last night, and they were of the opinion that "learning party" meant "learning from point X of the fight where most people are stuck." When I pointed out that more people were probably stuck with 0 experience in the fight (and so complying with the note to not even join), this individual said those people shouldn't be raiding anyway (which promptly earned them a spot on my blacklist).

I know that I, along with several other people I know, would love to raid and do endgame content. But we just migrated over, and don't have statics yet, and so haven't touched this content. So when we see things like this, it's more than a bit discouraging.

noticing you are my server also. those are the ones that want carries.

a learning party that has no other context is just that. a 0 experience group. i normally see people post something along the lines of "know up to X so we can learn a new phase" etc.

though if you are looking for a FC also. try Chivalrous Bastards <valor>

we are friendly and try to not leave people out. we just did a old coil run and have a few groups either on A3S or still forming. you do not have to watch a video either for some groups within. go in blind and learn. will leave that up to you. the FC is nice that i find. we try to keep it as friendly as possible. though opinions do clash at times which is normal. :)

Make your own learning party from the start, all the other people with no experience can join that and if you learn well, next you can join a party with requirements.
I'm an extremely patient individual, I spent a lot of my time online teaching other players, but honestly, when I want to clear a fight, I don't want to start over from the beginning every 60 minutes >.>

Thordan EX example: I am perfect up to phase 7, but I also have experience from phase 8 to the end. I want a party that is learning to do phase 8 til end perfectly as well (and get the clear, while at that).
But I'll never even see phase 8 if everyone keeps dying to the knights..or the meteors..or basically just anything in phase 1-7. I'm not an NPC, I have my own goals, and they don't revolve around spending 24/7 only teaching newbies and never progressing myself.

I'm a fast learner, it takes me about 2-3 tries at most to have something down to the point where I never mess it up again. Back when I was trying to clear T9, I understood how the meteors worked in 2 tries. But I spent the next THREE WEEKS watching other people fail to do them right for hours upon hours each day. And then I built my own group with only people who also knew what to do, because, at least to me, learning involves getting confronted with something new. Only repeating what I already do without error is not learning, you know?

I'm afraid that even on Hyperion this kind of thing is pretty normal in PF with true learning parties discouraged due to no-one wanting to join them.

also crap like this has stop me from doing the top level content (EX, Savage, Coil) since the community is SO toxic to new people wanting to learn the content (which might be down to people wanting to be carried though the content)

I got a /tell in first week to my PF to Thordan "METEOR TRAINING no firsttimers" that I'd be riddiculous because its new content... like srsly Meteors is half the fight I am allowed to ask some XP of the people that join.
I am not unfair in any way. People like to join my trainings/kills/farms obviously and even in farm if somone sends me a /tell "hey I have bonus got it down to XX% may I join?" I give a fair chance if all others in party agree. Actually like 8 people got their clears in my farms I did last week.

But I agree those PFs "kill for a friend only join if you have killed 15 times before" are the hilarious stuff I don't join... same as for clear parties or trainings with too high ilvl (Bissy i 180; Ravy i190!?). I join trainings (idm which stage they on I enjoy raiding and laughing and wiping if the team has the spirit) or clears often when bored but those aren't a help to people that actually wanna learn they just go gear > skill

I've seen it a couple of ties and I used to be truly baffled by it. I mean, learning group would imply learning wouldn't it? Why require the entire group to know the fight? If you know the whole fight and want your group to know the whole fight, then you should be organizing a clear group. I always found learning groups with these kinds of requirements rather ridiculous.

However...

After having several experiences joining, or putting together, PF groups to learn Raid/Trial fights I do, to some extent, understand where this attitude comes from. Don't get me wrong, Asking for max lvl gear and 100% knowledge is still absurd, but asking for experience in early phases makes sense in the longer fights.

Working with PuG groups in PF can be hell, especially in fights like T9 because of the sheer number of phases. It's hard to practice the final phase when you constantly get groups who are fresh in Phase 1 and wipe. You can explain it all you like, but in a fight like that there really is no substitute for experience. After a few dozen wipes, you start to understand why people ask for experience in the PF. There's only so long you are willing to replay the exact same phase over and over before you get tired and start posting requirements in your PF such as: "Must be able get to heavensfall." It's for stuff like this that SE's long awaited "Practice Mode" would have been wonderful.

Poor communication. If you want to learn from x point onwards, make a learning party from x onward. If you've cleared and are trying to get it down pat for farming, something similar.

It's all about clarity and wording, imo.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I'm afraid that even on Hyperion this kind of thing is pretty normal in PF with true learning parties discouraged due to no-one wanting to join them.

also crap like this has stop me from doing the top level content (EX, Savage, Coil) since the community is SO toxic to new people wanting to learn the content (which might be down to people wanting to be carried though the content)

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Shame you're not on Leviathan. I've cleared up to T9 before my group lost interest, and have nothing better to do right now but mess around there if someone wanted to.

Yeah I find this type of PF a lot on Moogle, and it's incredibly dissatisfying.

Although no level of clarity and simple-worded-ness will satisfy some people: "Training party, no experience is fine. Let's get started!" and (surprisingly often) people will join and after a wipe "... wtf this is a down party why are you wiping?"

Experiences like that make me give up on fights I know I'm capable of, until I have a static I can train with consistently.
Now, to find that static....