This thread I hope will demystify the use of LB for a tank. If you have chosen to play the class then be prepared to take responsibility for the success or failure of the group and for that to happen you have to know when and where to usurpe the priority of the groups other class LBs.
Yes you will inevitably garner the disrespect and ire of the DPS and even perhaps the healer if the attempt ultimately fails. Hell in some cases even as they\\'re sifting through the spoils of a successful raid they are calling you every name in the book but fear not. You did your job.
Here are the clear signals that the party has lost the fight and you need to step in.
1) the boss is nowhere near the ability for a DPS LB to kill.
2) In an 8 man raid at least one healer and one or 2 DPS are down.
3) the LB gauge is not close to tier 3.
4) the boss doesn\\'t have a rage timer.
5) healers are not able to keep you up whilst trying to sustain the group as a whole.
Tanks LB and the prime directive
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08-28-2015, 08:21 PMTyrErliedenTanks LB and the prime directive
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08-28-2015, 08:22 PMTyrErlieden
If the above or most of those indicators are apparent, hit the button. Stop worrying about what people are gonna say or think afterwards. Not every groups DPS will be optimal thus dragging the fight longer and getting hit by attacks they should be able to avoid thus putting additional pressure on the healers. Not every groups healers will be optimal putting pressure on the tank and DPS. Not every groups tanks will be optimal putting additional pressure on healers.
In short there are many circumstances that will lead to some or all of the above triggers. You almost always will get flamed for it but problem is you can\\\\'t rewind time to see if the group could have made it if you didn\\\\'t so just DO IT. Even silently I\\\\'ve had healers thank me for it because it gave them the time to through down a rez and heal the group even though the DPS were crying like babies.
Yes its a thankless job sometimes but you chose it so step up to the plate and fk the haters. -
08-28-2015, 08:39 PMPhoenicia
If the limit break is at full and the boss (non-raid) is at 10% and the melee in group is still DPSing, I WILL use the LB. There is nothing, imo, worse than overkilling said boss with a 15k hit when it has only 2k left.
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08-28-2015, 08:56 PMRapBreon
I wish there was a mechanic in which you needed to tank LB3 to survive it. I've wanted to press that button and it be a good thing for a long time now.
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08-28-2015, 09:05 PMFreyyyYou needed tank LB3 or at least LB2 back in T13 to survive Teraflare (the ultimate Bahamut move that pretty much caused the calamity in Eorzea). With LB2 everyone was super low HP after the attack. LB3 with Sacred Soil + shields on everyone almost negated it. I also remember one time popping a second tank LB3 to take the 4th Akh Morn solo when my PLD mate was dead. Tank LB3 is man mode damage mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by RapBreon
I remember when FCoB just released having to pop tank LB2 to survive Nerve Cloud in T11 too, tho the gear permitted to stop doing that and instead save LB for melee LB3.
Edit : Said Nerve Gas instead of Nerve Cloud. -
08-28-2015, 09:21 PMRapBreonI never did those turns QQ. Well at least it was required once, this brings me joy! Every turn I've done while requires DPS LB or go home. I mean you can clutch it once you overgear, but part of the initial strat never had the pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Hahaha I remember doing progression on Twintania and thinking LB3 was the only way to survive profusion (I dunno I think that's the name of it)....turns out I should just pay attention to the floor more :P. -
08-28-2015, 09:29 PMXenosan
I agree with upping the frequency of scripted Tank LB requirements in Raids. I actually thought they were going to do this after they came really close to doing it in WoD, and was disappointed to see in ALEX(N) it wasn't brought it.
Clarifying, not exactly as the OP is suggesting, but certain boss phases are scriped: ifrit ex small nails fill the LB bar, CoD small puffs being killed fills the LB bar. If raid designs provided this sort of scripted (ie free) 3bar LB opportunity that the tank has to LB in order for the raid to survive the boss's next big attack -
08-29-2015, 02:10 AMSekuI personally refer to it as the great wall of EorezaQuote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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08-29-2015, 08:13 AMNadirahAnd you'd still have the Derpgoon going "omg it's full DRAGONSONG DIVE!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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08-31-2015, 04:59 PMDitto
While I agree with the message you're trying to give, there are problems with the scenarios you're using.
The DPS LB isn't suppose to be the finishing blow to the boss. In fact, it should never be. DPS just don't care enough in pug environments and would rather use it directly at the end because it makes them look flashy and land the killing hit. Even if the boss is at 10% HP, sure the tank can LB, but it will still draw the fight on longer than it could have been if the DPS decided they wanted to be flashy with a killer LB.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrErlieden
Simply reminding them to LB in party chat usually does the trick. If they ignore it, then you get to see your rarely used LB.
The Healer LB is leagues better in this case. Not only will it resurrect the dead healer/DPS, it will top everyone's HP off at the same time. Using the tank LB would only slow down the wipe vs. attempting to recover from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrErlieden
This makes the tank LB even worse. The 1/2 bar DPS LB is still better simply because it will speed up the fight and end it quicker. The 1/2 bar mitigation amount isn't even worth mentioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrErlieden
This doesn't matter, again. It means you'll be sitting there longer beating that last 10% or so that a DPS LB could have dealt with instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrErlieden
Then that is a problem with the healers, which isn't something a tank LB is going to fix. Sure there may be cases where you've hit a rough point and healers may be trying to catch peoples health up before the next mechanic comes in and kills them, but with 2 healers especially, they should be able to do that without relying on bloated mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrErlieden
The Tank LB suffers the same problem the Vit stat has. In fact, it's the very definition of it. You ONLY need so much mitigation to survive a hit, anything beyond that is completely wasted and would be put to far, far better use doing damage. The tank LB is the definition of 'bloated mitigation' in 95% of situations. It's pure mitigation. It doesn't speed the fight up like the DPS LB does. It isn't going to help you recover from a possible wipe if people are already dead like the Healer LB does. It is RAW mitigation which is ONLY beneficial to the people who are currently alive, and are taking unbelievably large amounts of damage. Which isn't in any current fight, and has only been seen in very few fights in the past such as T13's Teraflare, Ultima HM with the last set of orbs (Which could be done without using the tank LB), and T11 on the guaranteed crit AOE after the add phase, but only if you did not have a scholar.
When it comes down to it, the Tank LB is only useful in situations that absolutely force it. If you can heal through it with basic CD's fine, it's a waste. And any DPS/Healer who gets upset that you used it when it could have instead been used on a DPS LB that would have sped the fight up, or a healer LB that may have prevented a wipe, has the right to be upset, because you just wasted the limit break.
I mean it doesn't even let you cheese mechanics, because most mechanics are designed to screw you over in more ways than just the total outgoing damage from failing the mechanic. And if damage is the mechanics business, chances are it's something that is intended to 1 shot you, and will probably still 1 shot you even with all of your mitigation. (T9 for example)
So really when it comes down to it, knowing when the tank LB is actually going to help more than the DPS or Healer LB requires a ridiculous amount of foresight. And not just what you 'think' is going to happen, because for all you know you could pop the tank LB when everything was going to be fine. The Healers could have had CD's up their sleeves which would have made everything perfectly fine. The Tank LB is not reactive at all, it's proactive, and that is a problem when it comes to knowing whether or not using your LB was the right choice or not.
So really, people will complain that you LB'd either way I'm sure, because they wanted to LB. But for all you know, they could have had the right of it. You may not have needed the tank LB you just wasted at all. if you're going to use it, be smart and aware. Don't use it just because things look like they're getting rough. And definitely don't use it if multiple people are already dead.