Tank Balance

There's currently a lot of threads (mostly started by Anger) discussing what needs to be changed to make all the tanks equally desirable.

So, I feel like there's a bit of a split discussion going on, and everything's too spread out to get any real point or purpose.

The obvious question that needs to be answered is: What needs to changed?

I'd like to hear what everyone thinks on this subject, because there seems to be too many topics starting with an opinion that devolves into an argument over DPS and WAR's overpowered etc. etc.

So what do you think? What needs to be changed to bring everyone in line? Or if you think nothing needs to be changed, why?

I'm 60 on all three tanks. While I don't claim to have mastery over all three classes, I at least have done most content outside of the later floors of Savage.

Warrior is fine. They're in a great place. Best tank DPS, best tank utility, self sufficient, and they can survive through anything relevant.

PLD needs a little help. Their enmity generation is the worst of the three tanks and could use a buff. Buffing SB and RoH to 3.5 and 5.5 modifiers is a step forward. They have a few dead skills that really need work -- Shield Swipe and Clemency. I think Shield Swipe would be fine with a potency increase so that it's a substantial DPS gain to use and a higher enmity modifier to help address PLD enmity generation. I also liked the idea of Shield Swipe enabling RoH, RA, and GB's combo component and I think it makes the class more fun to play. Clemency I would rather see changed to costing the PLD's full mana pool (meaning they can't use it at sub 100%), being instant cast, and triggering divine veil. I think the slight DPS increase and the utility increase would be enough to put them in a good spot.

DRK is in a... weird... situation. They have some serious design consistency issues that results in very awkward synergy between their own skills. Like DA buffing DD evasion when evasion doesn't have synergy with anything. You compare it to the internal synergy WAR has with all their abilities and you can only laugh at how disorganized DRK is. I think they could also use slightly improved MP management skills while in Grit and better TP management skills while out of Grit (so something like Equilibrium for MP would've been perfect for them and should've been what Sole Survivor did). And, Delirium has created a not so healthy situation with MNK vs. NINs that probably has to be addressed in some way. So, I think too much should be changed about DRK for their current balance to be relevant (though they are pretty balanced). The design changes need to happen first.

Would it be best to have the enmity modifiers for SB and RoH higher than the counterparts for war and drk?

Well, the thing with adjust SB and RoH modifiers is you have to consider synced content and the game at 50 still exist. The entire reason why SB and RoH's modifiers are slightly lower is because PLDs had no choice but to spam it even while DPSing. So, you do have to consider that buffing it even higher than x3.5 x5.5 might be detrimental in some ways. I think x3.5 x5.5 is already something you have to test.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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Agreed with all of these. Also something that makes PLD's mitigation game more engaging would be welcome, something like WAR's IB. Sheldtron is a good start but it's kind of worse than IB in every single way apart from being OGCD skill.

Making clemency use all MP from max would immediately make it unuseable.

Needed a flash or Stoneskin? Tough shit, you're oom!

Paladin needs sword oath changed from 50 potency to auto attacks to "increases weaponskill damage by 5%".
Currently, it's better for pld to drop shield oath and not swap in sword oath once they gain aggro, alternating combos and spirits within, and popping back into shield oath for tank busters/CoS. Sword oath is busted due to the time needed for auto atttack damage to justify the OCD you skip by dropping shield oath/reapplying

dark- no comment really; should've been a DD a la FFXI( here come the rants)

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Originally Posted by Brian_

PLD needs a little help. Their enmity generation is the worst of the three tanks and could use a buff. Buffing SB and RoH to 3.5 and 5.5 modifiers is a step forward. They have a few dead skills that really need work -- Shield Swipe and Clemency. I think Shield Swipe would be fine with a potency increase so that it's a substantial DPS gain to use and a higher enmity modifier to help address PLD enmity generation.

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I can agree with this. Shield Swipe being a DPS gain instead of a loss would help. Savage Blade and Halone having higher enmity mods would probably create some sort of problem in the pre-50 game, though I guess you could tie the higher mods to Shield Oath.

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I also like the idea of Shield Swipe enabling RoH, RA, and GB's combo component and I think it makes the class more fun to play.

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You mean using Shield Swipe as a shortcut of sorts? While that sounds great, I'm thinking it would be one or the other. Either Shield Swipe gets the damage boost or it becomes the shortcut ability to Halone/Royal Authority/Goring Blade.

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Clemency I would rather see changed to costing the PLD's full mana pool (meaning they can't use it at sub 100%), being instant cast, and triggering divine veil.

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Aside from the fact Clemency is there for off-tanking, off-healing utility, spending a whole MP bar on Clemency doesn't gel with me.

Since I don't run any Alex stuff I don't have any issues with PLD. I guess if I was to ask for something it would be to add a little enmity generation to RA. It is the most potent combo for DPS and people can't seem to get through Fractual or Neverreap fast enough, it would help a little bit. It doesn't have to be as much as RoH but a little would help. As for Clemency leave it be or else I can't solo Hullbreaker any more trying to get that armor.

A suggestion for paladin: please make the shield something more active, and future attack/defense can be tied to this. An example would be making shield swipe offer a brief but higher defense in addition to what it has now ( please consider making this magical defense also). I believe paladin to be the defender tank class foremost. Dps of the tank is becoming necessary more so..if this is buffed for paladin, please keep it behind warrior and dark knight, or adjust other tanks so they keep attack lead. My hope is that wide area enmity abillities of paladin are improved. For example: raise flash enmity to that of area dark flash,, but keep it so no damage is caused..or (maybe jokingly? Haha) add a very small heal ( 1%hp) to party members in flash area for more heal enmity. Thank you op for this nice discussion!