SMN target swap - how many GCDs to break even?

Essentially, the question is, how many GCDs does it take before setting up 3 dots is superior to just spamming ruin?

The answer is...~5 GCDs.

Math: it takes 3 GCDs to set up 3 dots. 1 dot applied at 2.5 sec, 1 dot applied at 5 sec, and Bio being applied at roughly 5.5-6 sec depending on animation delay. During that time, only Bio II gets to tick once. At the end of 3 GCDs, you will have roughly "half" a tick of time with 3 dots, so this is averaged out to (35+40+20)/2 potency.

Opportunity cost is 3 ruins, which is upfront 240 potency. We then subtract the simulated dot damage from the first 3 GCDs, then divide by the total dot potency to see how long these dots will take to equal the deficit. Turns out to be about 1.65 ticks or 5 seconds, so 2 GCDs after the 3 GCD setup.

If you can set up all 3 dots and fester, you will obviously win out...but at the cost of severe mana consumption as well as loss of potential dps (because you could've festered the boss instead, without losing the setup dps).

Another solution is to attempt different combinations of DoTs. Obviously since Miasma's contribution sucks, we will drop that first.

Bio II > Bio will overtake Ruin spam at roughly 9.4 seconds or 4 GCDs.

Pure Bio will overtake Ruin spam at roughly 6.5 seconds, or 3 GCDs.

So it takes planning, but you can find the optimal target swap rotation on small targets.

<2 GCDs, spam Ruin
3-4 GCDs, Bio > Ruin
4-5 GCDs, Bio II > Bio > Ruin
>5 GCDs, full setup

I would still use Bio + Miasma for shorter kills. Less MP, more damage. (Bio first since it's instant cast and can start ticking sooner and Miasma is 20 initial potency + 35 Potency Dots)

Another thing to consider is Bane VS Fester.

Like if you have more than 9 Seconds on all Dots is it better to Bane to a single mob or to just apply a couple new dots and save that Fester for the main boss.

All those decisions could be worth 1000's of damage.

Miasma's damage contribution on initial tick simply isn't enough to overcome its tick damage loss vs Bio and Bio II, after just one tick it does less damage.

Again, fester is worth it only if the target needs to die asap, you lose overall dps using fester on a target that would die in less than a couple GCDs however.

Its pretty easy to calculate when bane is superior to fester, and that is since your dots do 95 potency a tick, and fester is (max) 300 potency, it requires ~9 target*seconds before bane is superior.

So bane > fester at

1 additional target - 4 GCDs
2 additional targets - 2 GCDs
3 additional targets - 1-2 GCDs
4 additional targets - 1 GCD

Bio ii is quite potent given the entire duration of its usage, however miasma has upfront 20 potency damage with the same dot damage on a shorter duration. Would it not make more sense to use miasma over bio 2?

Im really unsure why miasmas contribution sucks.

Miasma is better.

I think OP thinks Miasma dot potency is only 20. Both Miasma and Bio II dot potency is 35. Miasma just does an initial 20 potency on use.

Combined Dot potency of BMB2 is 110

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Again, fester is worth it only if the target needs to die asap, you lose overall dps using fester on a target that would die in less than a couple GCDs however.

Its pretty easy to calculate when bane is superior to fester, and that is since your dots do 110 potency a tick, and fester is (max) 300 potency, it requires 9 seconds before bane is superior.

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That's easy enough. But if you factor in the potency of casting your Dots instead of Baning and then using Ruin, of which you could have saved that Aetherflow stack for an additional Fester on the boss.

I guess it's a case of comparing the Dot windup VS Bane and then factoring the 300 Potency of Fester.

(2.34 GCD)

Dots = 3 GCD (B2, M, B (Instant) and the mob can't die prior to 15s (475 Potency(Dots) + 260 (Ruin X 3 + Miasma Cast) + Fester) (1035 Potency)

VS Bane (550 Dots @ 5 ticks for 15s) (480 Ruin @ 6 casts) (1030 Potency)

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So, single target, it's pretty much always better to re-apply your dots, unless for some reason you need to Bane and then Fester, which is a huge waste.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Combined Dot potency of BMB2 is 110


That's easy enough. But if you factor in the potency of casting your Dots instead of Baning and then using Ruin, of which you could have saved that Aetherflow stack for an additional Fester on the boss.

I guess it's a case of comparing the Dot windup VS Bane and then factoring the 300 Potency of Fester.

Dots = 3 GCD (B2, M, B (Instant) and the mob can't die prior to 15s (475 Potency(Dots) + 240 (Ruin X 3) + Fester) (1015 Potency)

VS Bane (550 Dots @ 5 ticks for 15s) (480 Ruin @ 6 casts) (1030 Potency)

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I love to be the devil's advocate here, but in the event you have multiple targets todeal with also, using your aetherflow for bane instead of fester can also be a great contribution.
For instance, say Leviathan Orbs. It would be more efficient to dot either Levi or the orb, then bane onto the other as opposed to using fester on leviathan (or heaven forbid, on the orb), then continue to another orb (again, to bane the tail from the orb as opposed to festering the orb or the head again).


I've typed too much and I see a second edit actually showing the 15 increased potency of bane over fester given the full duration.

Additionally on the subject, regardless of add uptime, if there are 4 or more targets, it is most efficient to drop Bio2 from the adds entirely.

For an example, hourglasses in WoD, or nails in Ifrit. the most efficient use of your dots will actualyl be Misam, Bio, next target Miasma Bio, etc, returning to the original target to reapply Bio then Miasma.
I think Bio 2 is only efficient given the add lasts for longer periods, and there are no more adds to continue dealing with. There are very few of these situations in game that I can think of that this occurs where the add has a sufficient uptime window to allow your dots to run their duration without some sort of consequences, in which case Bio 2 would be applied mostly due to increased potency for whatever duration the add exists, and further to increase potency of Fester.

Edit, I noticed judge xero edited another time and I absolutely agree.

To anyone doing math, remember that the server tick can happen any time from the second you apply (it will even take the timer down a couple seconds on the initial duration to compensate!) to the full 3s later. This means something like Bio can be worth 80 potency within almost exactly 3s rather than a static 6s from the time you cast it, if lucky enough.

Probably best to assume a 1.5s average first tick from application when calculating any numbers.

You just prorate the tick, so if its 0.5 seconds till GCD from the application you just say its 0.5/3*potency.

I'm a bit confused by what Xero put down but I understand the idea of it.

Ideally bane saves you 3 GCDs that are used to apply dots.

Applying dots during those 3 GCDs gives you what is approximately 35 (1 Bio2 tick) + 20 (miasma application) + 110*0.5 (roughly all dots applied at 6 sec, we stop at 7.5 sec) = 110 potency

3 Ruins instead (because of bane application) gives you 240 pot, and you're saying 410 > 240 for single target. Mana costs and ramp aside, this makes sense and for double target bane is never worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I'm a bit confused by what Xero put down but I understand the idea of it.

Ideally bane saves you 3 GCDs that are used to apply dots.

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Basically, I think what it comes down to is casting DOTs is stronger than casting Ruin. (80 Potency)
Bio - 240 Potency (@18s)
Miasma - 300 Potency (@24s)
Bio 2 - 350 Potency (@30s)

So while you are saving having to cast your Dots by using Bane, that only allows you to cast extra Ruins (3 x Ruin is only 240 Potency VS Fester 300 Potency). Overall the DOT windup is not that bad since Bio is instant Cast and becomes part of the dot ticks before the GCD is over. Even at the full 2.5s GCD you can have all your DOTs running before the second Dot tick (obviously dependant on when the server tick happens).

Hitting 2+ Mobs with Bane is obviously better.

I'm mainly talking about the situations where a single add spawns. You will often see SMN's that will Bane to that mob and then blast it with Fester. Sure it looks cool, but you just lost like 600 Potency worth of damage, to do 300 Potency.

(300+ from Dots ticking, 300 Potency for using Bane which could have been a fester)

You could have easily cast Bio and Ruin II spammed while auto attacking, for more damage in only a few extra seconds + had 2 Aetherflow stacks to Fester something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You just prorate the tick, so if its 0.5 seconds till GCD from the application you just say its 0.5/3*potency.

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This I'm confused about. You get the full potency of a dot tick whether you cast it 2.5s or 0.5s before the server tick happens. There is no prorating.