Right now a lot of folks are complaining about how "powerful" ranged are in Slaughter. They seem overpowered for two principal reasons: 1) They are able to enjoy the support of many tanks/melee near them, making it more difficult to get close range. 2) Coordinated efforts by multiple ranged can be difficult to manage (e.g., if 3-4 BLMs want you dead bad enough, all casting at the same time, you're probably dead - also, multiple Cometeors can have this effect on your entire group).
However, ranged are easily countered. First off, they're very squishy. While a single caster will have a very difficult time killing much of anyone by themselves, a single melee can kill a single caster very quickly with ease. And yet the game and the player base treat casters like they are ultra dangerous gods of crazy dps disparity. Any strategy in Slaughter is basically considered "OP" because folks I guess just want to go melee and 1-2-3 everything to death without any thought to how to counter anything.
The dev team has been very good about nerfing casters and healers from using crazy coordinated attacks (obviously a team of BLMs with Swiftcast Flare was too strong, same with WHMs stacking Medica 2 and Holy), but it doesn't seem like much thought went into improving the fun or usability of magic jobs outside of these class stacking scenarios (since these nerfs also diminish their potential in "legitimate" scenarios).
Reduce focus on crowd control effects
Even now, effects like Bind and Sleep last what feel like forever. No one has any kind of fun while being bound/slept. It's just annoying. People probably hate being CC'd even more than being killed, which has always made casters a priority (and easy) target in Secure. They are only harder to kill in Slaughter because the group of people involved is larger, and folks refuse to coordinate. I'd prefer to see timers on CC effects drastically reduced to put more emphasis on dynamic action rather than neutralizing folks entirely to try to blitz key players while everyone on their team is CC'd.
Don't interrupt based on target moving around to behind you
Pretty much any melee that engages a caster is going to run circles around you, literally, causing just about every cast to fail because you are no longer facing them. Spamming "face target" is uniformly unhelpful for this, because you get interrupted anyway (happens in PvE as well when monsters jump past you very quickly). This is even less fun for me than being slept. I mean, it's not bad enough that every melee attack interrupts me, or that they can stun/silence me, but they get to interrupt me by running around behind me constantly as well? Um, thanks.
Increase mobility
I'm not sure why BRD is so special that they get unrestricted movement, while casters can only move with instant-cast spells. I would understand this better if caster dps was on par with melee dps, to give them a counterbalance to that power, but caster dps is significantly lower than melee dps on a single target.
Spells like Fire I and Blizzard I should be able to be cast while moving. It's frustrating to watch melee just literally walk out of range when you're trying to cast on them. CC'ing them doesn't help, because you break the CC as soon as you hit them, or in the case of heavy effects, just gives you more time to Scathe them before they run away. Spells like Fire II, Fire III, and Flare should still force you to remain still while casting, but it's a bit much that caster movement is so heavily restricted, especially for PvP.
A means to escape
If casters are only meant to be effective when keeping a melee at range, they should have some tools for getting away. Attempting to Sprint is largely ineffective as melee have many tools to directly counter this, in the form of stuns, gap closers, weapon throw, fists of wind, sprinting themselves, etc.
One thing that might be nice here would be making Blizzard II an instant cast. Give them a short bind so you can potentially run off. It's always possible they will stun you or do a gap closer as soon as they shake it off, but at least it would give you a chance. In WoW, a Mage would be able to Ice Block (an ability basically given to healers in PvP in this game) and Blink (Aetherial Manipulation doesn't break effects, and you'd have to find someone to port to before the melee crushes you - good luck!). In FFXIV, you, um, never let anyone get close to you begin with (good thing everyone has crazy gap closers, right!?), or you pretty much just die. And SMNs have it even worse than BLMs.
Not every attack should interrupt
Getting every spell interrupted due to being hit is... ridiculous. I think most everyone would prefer the cast time be extended per hit taken, similar to WoW, rather than lose every spell because you took damage. Casters don't have any real tools for keeping anyone at range, and yet they become completely useless when not at range. This is a huge disparity, and certainly not what I'd expect from a game mode where, as Yoshida/dev team states, "everyone should be able to just drop in and have fun". I guarantee you that amateur casters will have ZERO FUN in any PvP mode.
A means to keep enemies at bay
Casters would be more viable in a 1v1 scenario if they could keep their distance. Being able to cast spells like Fire I at range would help with this, because as is they need someone's assistance to really deal with anything, while a melee can just "get in there" and take care of it on their own.
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01-31-2015, 03:37 AMHirukeCasters in Slaughter - Would be nice to increase mobility, reduce focus on CC
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01-31-2015, 06:30 AMWelsper59That's because in something like Slaughter, we (ranged) are that good. Most people don't consider ranged to be OP (exception being the Cometeor combos), but rather that it's in favor of ranged. That is 100% true. Ranged in all facets of an FF game, are looked at as glass cannons. This isn't WoW, where a Frost Mage can arguably survive any class without taking a single point of damage with ease before making an escape if need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruke
You need to have strategy not to just your attacks, but to your survival. Technically, the same is said to melee as well. You're going to rely on heals, just like everyone else. You're going to take varying damage and need to know when to run. It's not so much about a 1v1 game, as it is a group thing. Melee are practically useless at range, where they are most vulnerable when targeted and kite-able. Casters are practically useless at melee range, where they are most vulnerable when targeted and interruptible.
Reading this makes me think you don't understand the group concept in PvP. A caster is not a front line fighter. They need the protection of others and to be out of the spotlight to perform at 100%. In return, they are generally not going to take (much) damage and will be free to attack, CC, and monitor a greater view of the field than their melee counterparts.Quote:
The dev team has been very good about nerfing casters and healers from using crazy coordinated attacks (obviously a team of BLMs with Swiftcast Flare was too strong, same with WHMs stacking Medica 2 and Holy), but it doesn't seem like much thought went into improving the fun or usability of magic jobs outside of these class stacking scenarios (since these nerfs also diminish their potential in "legitimate" scenarios).
I honestly wonder if you're one of those people that just run off on their own to chase someone and end up right in the middle of a bunch of opposing players, ignoring the fact that your group is not following you. I can tell you that if you are, you're not playing the game right, and I hate being in groups with folks like that. It's about adjusting how you play with your group and realizing you're not a 1-man army.
I have to agree with you here. Bind and sleep are WAY too potent in the current state of things.Quote:
Reduce focus on crowd control effects
Even now, effects like Bind and Sleep last what feel like forever. No one has any kind of fun while being bound/slept. It's just annoying. People probably hate being CC'd even more than being killed, which has always made casters a priority (and easy) target in Secure. They are only harder to kill in Slaughter because the group of people involved is larger, and folks refuse to coordinate. I'd prefer to see timers on CC effects drastically reduced to put more emphasis on dynamic action rather than neutralizing folks entirely to try to blitz key players while everyone on their team is CC'd.
Gotta point back to what I said about needing to be with your party and knowing when to use an escape plan. The interrupts could use a bit of love though, that I can agree with. Definitely not to the point of simply ignoring directional requirements and such though, as this serves little purpose given the argument at hand. If a single melee is strong enough to take you out fast, what difference would a cast make that you couldn't pull off now? Swiftcast + CC, knockbacks, whatever PvP skills you have, Sprint, etc. If there are multiple melee on you, you're not exactly supposed to win that fight.Quote:
Don't interrupt based on target moving around to behind you
Pretty much any melee that engages a caster is going to run circles around you, literally, causing just about every cast to fail because you are no longer facing them. Spamming "face target" is uniformly unhelpful for this, because you get interrupted anyway (happens in PvE as well when monsters jump past you very quickly). This is even less fun for me than being slept. I mean, it's not bad enough that every melee attack interrupts me, or that they can stun/silence me, but they get to interrupt me by running around behind me constantly as well? Um, thanks.
The point is that you're at a significant advantage at ranged, whereas they are not. They have gap closers to help them on that, but you have CC and Sprint to do the same. If they outplay you by using their CC better, or you were caught with cooldowns still running, then GG. Welcome to PvP.Quote:
Increase mobility
I'm not sure why BRD is so special that they get unrestricted movement, while casters can only move with instant-cast spells. I would understand this better if caster dps was on par with melee dps, to give them a counterbalance to that power, but caster dps is significantly lower than melee dps on a single target.
Spells like Fire I and Blizzard I should be able to be cast while moving. It's frustrating to watch melee just literally walk out of range when you're trying to cast on them. CC'ing them doesn't help, because you break the CC as soon as you hit them, or in the case of heavy effects, just gives you more time to Scathe them before they run away. Spells like Fire II, Fire III, and Flare should still force you to remain still while casting, but it's a bit much that caster movement is so heavily restricted, especially for PvP.
I'm not sure how you're being caught and locked down while using Sprint, even if they use gap closers. PLD/DRG have no real gap closers that I'm aware of that would prevent your Sprint from working and Warriors can easily just be shutdown if they use chains with your PvP skills. MNKs can't lock you down if you were caught with their gap closer (at least, I've never been stunlocked to death by them), same goes for NIN. Again, are you playing by your team, and does your team have healers? If no to either of those, then there's your problem.Quote:
A means to escape
If casters are only meant to be effective when keeping a melee at range, they should have some tools for getting away. Attempting to Sprint is largely ineffective as melee have many tools to directly counter this, in the form of stuns, gap closers, weapon throw, fists of wind, sprinting themselves, etc.
One thing that might be nice here would be making Blizzard II an instant cast. Give them a short bind so you can potentially run off. It's always possible they will stun you or do a gap closer as soon as they shake it off, but at least it would give you a chance. In WoW, a Mage would be able to Ice Block (an ability basically given to healers in PvP in this game) and Blink (Aetherial Manipulation doesn't break effects, and you'd have to find someone to port to before the melee crushes you - good luck!). In FFXIV, you, um, never let anyone get close to you begin with (good thing everyone has crazy gap closers, right!?), or you pretty much just die. And SMNs have it even worse than BLMs.
PvP is not centered around 1v1. If it were, SCH and/or WHM would probably be reigning champions. Practically impossible to kill and will whittle away their targets HP slowly until they die. Melee is all about not being caught at ranged, while ranged is all about not being caught in melee. If a melee is being kited non-stop, it is in their best interest to abandon that target. If a caster is not finding an opportunity to cast to kill their target, it is in their best interest to abandon that target.Quote:
A means to keep enemies at bay
Casters would be more viable in a 1v1 scenario if they could keep their distance. Being able to cast spells like Fire I at range would help with this, because as is they need someone's assistance to really deal with anything, while a melee can just "get in there" and take care of it on their own.
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01-31-2015, 09:30 AMlotti
i was wrote a wall of text that forum don't accept. so in short:
my first arena 4 vs 4 in final fantasy was atrocious, i literally do nothing except run and die. than i find this white mage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghvnZxmRR5M) that play for 29 minutes in den. and i realize i was totally noob compared to him (in wow i was a 2000 + rating as a disci priest, and i thought i was a good player, well i'm not, i just played an op class in wow)
in conclusion, if you have play wow for year, like me, you need to re-learn how to play. i'm still a totally noob, but i get a really better feel frontline after frontline :D
never give up man :)