Off Tank DPS - is Pld > War still a valid arguement?

So a friend who has returned to the game and mentioned this. I didn't think this still true. It certainly doesn't feel true when I wear identical accessories on my Paladin.

But basically it goes this. Paladin is a superior Offtank DPS when compared to Warrior.

I don't think it's that PLD is better, it's that WAR is better at DPS no matter where you put it.

As OT it has higher STR, higher potency and all its damage buffing goodies like maim and storm's eye. While MT it has unchained to remove it's damage penalty without sacrificing the positive effects of defiance.

PLD MT can switch from shield to sword oath and use rampart but it still loses the enmity boost.

never was, never will be. I don't even know why people would think that.

A lot of people actually have this idea and there was a lot of math done on specifically this topic. The answer is that in a theorycrafted vacuum of only looking at dps, PLD OT and WAR OT are relatively close.

WAR has big buffs like maim, storm's eye, and berserk, as well as an actually decent fracture. However, PLD does have some good DPS skills as well. Spirits Within is a 300 potency off global cooldown skill every 30 seconds. Circle of Scorn is also off GCD and does 250 potency with a cooldown of 25 seconds. That's about an extra 1100 potency per minute (equivalent to 4 un-maimed combo-ed Butcher's Blocks)! Not Bad!

Fight or Flight is actually a really good cooldown as well and is pretty comparable with Berserk, if not better, on average.

The problem with OT PLD lies in actual raid scenarios. Not having access to shield swipe or invigorate makes it impossible to sustain dps for any extended amount of time using the Halone combo. You will definitely lose TP very quickly and run dry quicker than your MNK. While Skill Speed is quite valuable for WAR up to a certain point, any SS at all is quite detrimental to a PLD in DPS mode if they have to DPS for an extended period of time.

You also run into enmity problems. PLD OT will almost exclusively use the Rage of Halone combo, which produced a non-negligible amount of enmity even in sword oath. This forces the WAR to prioritize butcher's block combo more often, resulting in a loss the valuable Storm's Eye and Storm's Path debuffs. Having to drop Storm's Path when you need it just to keep aggro on the boss feels pretty crappy. A WAR OT can freely make decisions as to when they want to keep their buffs up, and can even keep both up with 100% uptime. This problem gets even worse when the WAR MT needs to wear VIT gear to survive, and the PLD OT puts on more STR accessories for additional DPS. The enmity buff on Circle of Scorn is just icing on the cake.

As a point of reference, a first kill t12 recently had Warrior at ~180 DPS and PLD at ~130 DPS. Same ilvl weapon. Warrior wearing +39 Str from jewelry, none on PLD. That's mostly all tank stances, but switching evenly between WAR & PLD MT. Pure OT scenario would be a bit different, but if you can OT 100% of a fight you really should just have another DPS instead of OT.

Fairly certain WAR will always be the preferred OT. Mostly for reasons other posters already mentioned above, but I'll add one more: PLD requires a GCD to switch between Sword and Shield Oaths, while WAR does not require it for Defiance.

Iirc, pld lost by some small% in a vacuum because of the slashing debuff. War benefited from its own SE debuff while pld didnt. But in an actual fight with a nin or war applying it, pld pulled ahead.

Basically if a war and a pld go beat up their own dummies faking OT, war wins. If your in an actual fight with a nin or war MT giving pld slash debuff, pld wins the OT dps award by like 4% or something.

basically it is close but still in plds favor. The REAL reason pld OT for damage is because war MT damage completely curb stomps pld MT damage. So war MT pld OT net damage is way way superior to pld MT, War OT combo. But it's not really because of the OT damage. It's the MT damage that is the game changer.

It depends on the person behind the green curtain. Gear helps as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izsha

Iirc, pld lost by some small% in a vacuum because of the slashing debuff. War benefited from its own SE debuff while pld didnt. But in an actual fight with a nin or war applying it, pld pulled ahead.

Basically if a war and a pld go beat up their own dummies faking OT, war wins. If your in an actual fight with a nin or war MT giving pld slash debuff, pld wins the OT dps award by like 4% or something.

basically it is close but still in plds favor. The REAL reason pld OT for damage is because war MT damage completely curb stomps pld MT damage. So war MT pld OT net damage is way way superior to pld MT, War OT combo. But it's not really because of the OT damage. It's the MT damage that is the game changer.

---

both jobs pretty much the same in term of dmg

and if you really wanna push the DPS to max PLD MT on Sword oath while war on OT >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoxastic

The problem with OT PLD lies in actual raid scenarios. Not having access to shield swipe or invigorate makes it impossible to sustain dps for any extended amount of time using the Halone combo. You will definitely lose TP very quickly and run dry quicker than your MNK. While Skill Speed is quite valuable for WAR up to a certain point, any SS at all is quite detrimental to a PLD in DPS mode if they have to DPS for an extended period of time.

---

I don't see why PLD OT would lose TP faster than a WAR OT. WAR OT gets a little bit of a regen boost due to berserk, but expends TP faster otherwise due to the need for Fracture to max DPS. PLD can ignore fracture because the DPS boost is so small.

If both tanks have access to the Storm's eye debuff, PLD is slightly higher as OT. Worked out that way in math and every controlled test that was done properly (and properly accounted for Sword Oath).

Quote:

---

You also run into enmity problems. PLD OT will almost exclusively use the Rage of Halone combo, which produced a non-negligible amount of enmity even in sword oath. This forces the WAR to prioritize butcher's block combo more often, resulting in a loss the valuable Storm's Eye and Storm's Path debuffs. Having to drop Storm's Path when you need it just to keep aggro on the boss feels pretty crappy. A WAR OT can freely make decisions as to when they want to keep their buffs up, and can even keep both up with 100% uptime. This problem gets even worse when the WAR MT needs to wear VIT gear to survive, and the PLD OT puts on more STR accessories for additional DPS. The enmity buff on Circle of Scorn is just icing on the cake.

---

This is where the real problem is, limiting the WAR MTs use of SP or SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RhazeCain

As a point of reference, a first kill t12 recently had Warrior at ~180 DPS and PLD at ~130 DPS. Same ilvl weapon. Warrior wearing +39 Str from jewelry, none on PLD. That's mostly all tank stances, but switching evenly between WAR & PLD MT. Pure OT scenario would be a bit different, but if you can OT 100% of a fight you really should just have another DPS instead of OT.

---

That is a lot of STR, so that makes a difference. Also parsers often have difficulty picking up Sword Oath, so you have to make sure that it was counted in that situation. Sword Oath is something like a 16% or so DPS boost.

WAR may also be a little better when you're talking about switching between MT & OT. As the WAR is only tanking half the time, the amount of time that Unchained removes the tank DPS penalty for is higher %.

those proper tests were they on Jaggedy-Eared Jack and Leaping Lizzy?