Are raid lockouts really necessary?

I'm very confused by what SE is trying to accomplish with this game. They do a lot of things seemingly to make the game really casual friendly, but then make raiding as if it's only meant for the ultra hardcore.

Problem #1) 8 man raids + lockout = Really painful to try to always hang out with the same 7 people and find raid times that make sense for everyone. Some people clearly have more free time than others, and I don't begrudge them that, but many/most are limited by time zone/work schedule.

This issue may be at least somewhat alleviated by the "assist" system being added in 2.45, but I have to question why this wasn't implemented sooner.

Problem #2) Gotta get it done every day/week. The game in general suffers from the sense that you MUST do certain things. Like, you have to clear Final Coil, in order, every week, or miss out on potentially getting things. Already have everything from Turn 10? Who cares. Do it anyway.

Other parts of the game are even worse about this. Like having to do beastman dailies for sealant, or showing up every day for mystery map expert roullette time. If everything that was a "daily" stacked up like levequests (up to a limit, like levequests), it would do a lot for the sanity of some people. If you too strongly incentivize logging on EVERY SINGLE DAY, it's high risk - you might just burn these people out to the extent they just quit.

Problem #3) Random loot drops are too random or not random enough. As I've previously lamented, it took me over 30 wins on Second Coil Turn 1 to get the caster drops. That's over 7 months of farming, with the lockout still up. Should it really take 7 months to get stuff that by that point you don't even need anymore? Seems legit.

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I don't see a lot of risk inherent with removing lockouts, either. The super awesome folks who clear the entirety of Coil in the first week/month are still going to get everything really quickly, lockout or not. Not having a lockout would let everyone play at their own pace, rather than feeling like it's a constant rat race, plus they could gear up more from earliers Turns to have more gear for later Turns, which is what one might reasonably expect from tiered content to begin with.

Also, I think the dev team infinitely likes to "forget" that people can play any job. If they gear up one job completely, they are likely to work on the next one they also like, so they will keep doing the content even without a lockout. What's the point in the dev team trying to force people to specialize only in one job? Isn't the beauty of the armoury system that you could experience it all? Why not let people play multiple jobs at a high level while the content is still relevant? Instead because of weekly lockouts on Coil and Poetics, you're pretty much just one job for the highest raid tier, period. The lockout is really only holding back the 1% from finishing everything in a week. It's just annoying to everyone else.

If anything, I feel raid lockouts are a sign that the dev team feels you have nothing interesting to do if you don't have Coil to progress in, which... maybe add some more interesting content?

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

I'm very confused by what SE is trying to accomplish with this game. They do a lot of things seemingly to make the game really casual friendly, but then make raiding as if it's only meant for the ultra hardcore.

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Raiding is literally meant for the hardcore. It's the one echelon of content specifically designed for them.

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Problem #1) 8 man raids + lockout = Really painful to try to always hang out with the same 7 people and find raid times that make sense for everyone. Some people clearly have more free time than others, and I don't begrudge them that, but many/most are limited by time zone/work schedule.

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You think 8 man raids are too much? Be glad the number is as low as it is! I shudder to think what it would be like to organize 24 man raids... or god forbid 40.

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Problem #2) Gotta get it done every day/week. The game in general suffers from the sense that you MUST do certain things. Like, you have to clear Final Coil, in order, every week, or miss out on potentially getting things. Already have everything from Turn 10? Who cares. Do it anyway.

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The raids aren't just about you. It's about what everybody else needs as well. It would be some time before everybody in the party has everything from one turn.

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Other parts of the game are even worse about this. Like having to do beastman dailies for sealant, or showing up every day for mystery map expert roullette time. If everything that was a "daily" stacked up like levequests (up to a limit, like levequests), it would do a lot for the sanity of some people. If you too strongly incentivize logging on EVERY SINGLE DAY, it's high risk - you might just burn these people out to the extent they just quit.

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Logging in every day is certainly incentivized, but that doesn't mean you have to log in every day. We'll leave it to individuals as to whether the incentives are just too strong.

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Problem #3) Random loot drops are too random or not random enough. As I've previously lamented, it took me over 30 wins on Second Coil Turn 1 to get the caster drops. That's over 7 months of farming, with the lockout still up. Should it really take 7 months to get stuff that by that point you don't even need anymore? Seems legit.

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Random chance is random chance, unfortunately. Everyone has their lucky and unlucky moments. This is why there are other avenues of acquiring the highest iLvl of gear. If you're so worried about secondary stats, stop. There is literally no reason not to just put a i130 piece in a slot if you have a chance, just as long as it doesn't put you below Accuracy cap.

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I don't see a lot of risk inherent with removing lockouts, either. The super awesome folks who clear the entirety of Coil in the first week/month are still going to get everything really quickly, lockout or not. Not having a lockout would let everyone play at their own pace, rather than feeling like it's a constant rat race, plus they could gear up more from earliers Turns to have more gear for later Turns, which is what one might reasonably expect from tiered content to begin with.

Also, I think the dev team infinitely likes to "forget" that people can play any job. If they gear up one job completely, they are likely to work on the next one they also like, so they will keep doing the content even without a lockout. What's the point in the dev team trying to force people to specialize only in one job? Isn't the beauty of the armoury system that you could experience it all? Why not let people play multiple jobs at a high level while the content is still relevant? Instead because of weekly lockouts on Coil and Poetics, you're pretty much just one job for the highest raid tier, period. The lockout is really only holding back the 1% from finishing everything in a week. It's just annoying to everyone else.

If anything, I feel raid lockouts are a sign that the dev team feels you have nothing interesting to do if you don't have Coil to progress in, which... maybe add some more interesting content?

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So, Coil is unlocked. The world firsts bulldoze their way through pre-unlocked turns. They get Turn 11 and 12 on farm and outfit themselves with almost complete sets of i130 gear in one week. Then, they get T13 on farm because they have the gear. In less than 3 weeks, these groups of people have maxed their gear. Perhaps even for more than one class. The somewhat less hardcore will be fully outfitted in less than two months.

They have achieved their goal, and barely have a reason to play the game anymore. So... why pay for it? They cancel their subscription until the next Raid comes out.

This situation is something that SE wants to avoid. It means less money. This is why there is a lockout. The content is being artificially extended so to keep this from occurring. All of this lobbying to remove the lockout will make SE lose money. Which we kind of don't want, because it means less content and less good content.

So, stop. Things are the way they are for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

So, Coil is unlocked. The world firsts bulldoze their way through pre-unlocked turns. They get Turn 11 and 12 on farm and outfit themselves with almost complete sets of i130 gear in one week. Then, they get T13 on farm because they have the gear. In less than 3 weeks, these groups of people have maxed their gear. Perhaps even for more than one class. The somewhat less hardcore will be fully outfitted in less than two months.

They have achieved their goal, and barely have a reason to play the game anymore. So... why pay for it? They cancel their subscription until the next Raid comes out.

This situation is something that SE wants to avoid. It means less money. This is why there is a lockout. The content is being artificially extended so to keep this from occurring. All of this lobbying to remove the lockout will make SE lose money. Which we kind of don't want, because it means less content and less good content.

So, stop. Things are the way they are for a reason.

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This is pretty much the explanation for lockouts right here. Compared to other games, SE is actually really lenient, because they've been good about dropping lockouts as soon as a new level of content is available so that you can farm the last tier to get geared if you weren't already. Imagine still having lockouts on T1-9 and Labyrinth and Syrcus on top of current lockouts.

Major lockout changes coming tomorrow.

I wish they had a token system like the new dungeons. "Anyone need gloves? Please pass to them." Instead my group is stuck with dex drops week after week. Our bard and ninja are i120+ while I'm still i113 and banking on poetic/crafted gear to even have the VIT for T13. Dex loot is hitting the floor because literally no one needs it.

Same issue I had in SCoB. That turn 7 robe wouldn't drop for me (main WHM) until the last week before 2.4. What was even worse though was our monk who couldn't get the accuracy to equip her HA claws until the last week because the helm never dropped. She had been clearing weekly since 2.3 hit.

The weekly lockouts don't otherwise bother me at all with the changes they are making.

Lockout and dailies are there to REWARD players that play everyday/week. It sounds to me like you want the rewards but not put in the time or effort to complete them.

from what i read on neoseeker the assist system will replace raid lockouts for drop lockouts, which i assume means players can get 13(26?) drops if doing all of coil for the week, and can still run it with others wanting to gear/glam up until everyone got all their drops