You know, Iceheart was right...

While I don't agree with her methods and most of her speech, there's one thing I agree with Iceheart during 2.4's scenario: we're nothing but pawns, dancing to the strings of both, people with power (that clearly don't have people's best interests at heart) or the Ascians (by making us stronger for their own plans).

I hate to admit it, but I feel that for each part of the Main Scenario we're given through each patch, we're still too far away from:

- A *truly* united Eorzea
- The truth behind the Ascians (it's all well and good that we're finding a way to stop them, but we don't know what they're and why do they want to bring back their "one true god")
- The truth behind the conflict between Ishgard and the Dravanians (even though, it's more than likely we'll find out for the expansion)

At this point, and given everything coming together around us, it's pretty easy to lose heart...

I wouldn't listen to the insane ramblings of a woman who turned herself into a Primal, as she basically strawmans her own argument (just like how Gaius lost whatever moral high ground he might have had the moment he allied with Lahabrea). We're not pawns of a higher power. We're adventurers, free spirited youth who go whereever fame and glory are to be found. We just happen to have the Echo (and are guided by the Mothercrystal), but it's completely up to us how we use that power.

As for your three story points:

Eorzea will never be truly united - the backstory for the game all but shouts that (in fact, that point was made quite clear in version 1.0's manual, that the citystates of Eorzea frequently switch allegiances based on the circumstances of the time). Taking a specific god of the Twelve as their champion also didn't help things, as Eorzeans regard past wars of the realm as wars of the gods - divinely sanctioned. That just ensures the realm will be in a state of constant strife. The current Alliance is shaky as it is, and was only because of outside influences was it even able to exist.

The Ascians have been around since time immemorial - it's been mentioned frequently that they're immortal beings, so it's only natural we won't see a resolution to their story any time soon. But given the fact I read that Yoshi wants to get away from the Primals as being central to the story, it's likely this will also mean the Ascian storyline will be eventually resolved. But either way, this game is still young - FFXI's main story wasn't truly resolved for at least two expansion packs - give it time and everything will be revealed.

Ishgard and the war with the dragons is the central theme of the expansion - haven't you read all the latest news about it?

Either way, losing heart is what the Ascians want you to do! Don't give up! You're a Warrior of Light who has taken down the XIVth Legion and slain Primals, you'll be more than capable of facing the challenges to come! ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Either way, losing heart is what the Ascians want you to do! Don't give up! You're a Warrior of Light who has taken down the XIVth Legion and slain Primals, you'll be more than capable of facing the challenges to come! ;)

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I know, I know...it's just that I wish that we had some small victory against them, to take that smug, arrogant look off their faces (Lahabrea's defeat was simply a minor inconvenience).

But yeah, guess I should feel more hopeful that we'll be able set things right, even if it takes a long time.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

...as she basically strawmans her own argument. We're not pawns of a higher power.

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That's not a strawman argument; more like a bleaker, more cynical interpretation of service. We may be "free-willed" individuals in that Hydaelyn did not temper us the way primals do (a point that some would dispute), but we did choose to answer her call and serve the cause of "light".

Iceheart chose to see that service as servitude instead. There's only a fine line between the two. She has seen things that we have not, so it's too early, I think, to dismiss her as a lunatic.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

...it's pretty easy to lose heart...

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It is indeed. One of Minfilia's major objectives is to restore a sense of balance and harmony but, as we've seen, a right balance is not easy to achieve in Eorzea, as in real-life.

Gridania's wish to maintain the sanctity of its woods can become a stifling orthodoxy that breeds racism and bigotry. Ul'dah's politics may disgust many but, at the same time, it comes from a work ethic that emphasises self-reliance, and the belief that the greatest rewards should go to the most deserving. Limsa Lominsa's expansion is necessary to ensure that former pirates and rogues can be gainfully employed, but it's also robbing weaker neighbours of their livelihoods.

Why can't we just get along? Because, ultimately, it's never easy to balance self-interest with the needs of the greater good.

Ramuh thus isn't entirely wrong to blame mankind for the ills of the world.

I also think it's no accident that the writers had Iceheart calling on the WoL "to see with eyes unclouded". I believe it to be a reference to the immensely popular Studio Ghibli movie, Mononoke Hime.

Those who have watched the movie will remember how creator Hayao Miyazaki portrayed the conflicting interests of different societies. The protagonist struggled to negotiate a compromise between the groups competing for the resources of the forest, but was ultimately forced to accept that their differences ran too deep.

Those who refused to accept the need for change chose to go into extinction with all guns blazing. As for the rest, no one emerged from the conflict unmarked.

It was a sober meditation on the need for power. Ideals are peaceful. History, unfortunately, is violent.

On this point alone, I'm reminded of Merlwyb's hard-headed realism with regard to Limsa Lominsa's disputes with the kobolds, as well as Alphinaud's belief that the Scions needed a standing army of its own. He understood that without hard power, no amount of negotiation would ever bring the peace the Scions sought to achieve.

But it isn't a lost cause, though. In Mononoke Hime, the disparate factions shared one crucial value: A stubborn will to survive. No matter how hard it would get, the survivors were determined to do their best with whatever they had.

This was echoed by Alphinaud during the MSQ for Patch2.3: He came to realise why his grandfather was so fond of the people of Eorzea, because they too were a people who refused to give up.

And as long as this determination exists, there is room for hope.

Just not a very bright, happy one.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Eorzea will never be truly united - the backstory for the game all but shouts that (in fact, that point was made quite clear in version 1.0's manual, that the citystates of Eorzea frequently switch allegiances based on the circumstances of the time). Taking a specific god of the Twelve as their champion also didn't help things, as Eorzeans regard past wars of the realm as wars of the gods - divinely sanctioned. That just ensures the realm will be in a state of constant strife. The current Alliance is shaky as it is, and was only because of outside influences was it even able to exist

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I'm sorry to go slightly off topic, but I'm just wondering, has anyone ever put the City States in place of the Twelve's names in that family/relationship chart? Does that tell of the relationships between city states?

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Originally Posted by Kyan

I'm sorry to go slightly off topic, but I'm just wondering, has anyone ever put the City States in place of the Twelve's names in that family/relationship chart? Does that tell of the relationships between city states?

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This occurred to me also, but it doesn't fit very well. For example, I would've thought that Ul'dah and Sil'dih were meant to be represented by Nald and Thal; brother deities for sister cities. As well as that seems to work, both cities were formed after the fall of Belah'dia, who we know had Ayzema as its patron among the Twelve. While both Ayzema and Nald'thal are of fire aspect, the relationships as we know them don't indicate any other connection between them. How appropriate it would be if Ayzema was mother to Nald and Thal! However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

At the risk of further deviation from the topic, I'm sure Anonymoose could expound on this, since he has theories about cities and their patron deities.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I wouldn't listen to the insane ramblings of a woman who turned herself into a Primal, as she basically strawmans her own argument (just like how Gaius lost whatever moral high ground he might have had the moment he allied with Lahabrea). We're not pawns of a higher power. We're adventurers, free spirited youth who go whereever fame and glory are to be found. We just happen to have the Echo (and are guided by the Mothercrystal), but it's completely up to us how we use that power.

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To some extent we are now the pawns of the Ascians though. Urianger noted that Iceheart was groomed for her role in summoning Shiva by the Ascians. They used her beliefs to manipulate her into doing what they wanted.

Based on the cutscenes from the ex-primals and other places involving the Ascians every attempt we've made to thwart their plans has actually ended up being exactly what they wanted. The Ascians are grooming the Warriors of Light for a role as well. We may be acting of our own free will but we are being manipulated into making the decisions the Ascians want. Whatever their endgame is, they need us for something, and we probably won't find out what until it's too late.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Ramuh thus isn't entirely wrong to blame mankind for the ills of the world.

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Y'sholta is also cynical of the spoken races as well. As her reactions to certain actions (incendently 2 of which are in Limsa) shows,

That said I agree with you on the "Iceheart is not a strawman" thing. As you said she had seen and known of things we do not. Also she dosen't seem to be using fallacies in her speech like strawmen.