I was wondering if there have been any more reveals about which Archons are the physical manifestations of the Twelve. To my knowledge this is all that's confirmed (I'll update this post as more are confirmed):
Althyk - ?
Azeyma - ?
Byregot - ?
Halone - ?
Llmlaen - ?
Menphina - ?
Nald'Thal - ?
Nophica - ?
Nymeia - ?
Oschon - ?
Rhalgr - Ahldbhar
Thaliak - Louisoix
Remaining Archons unaccounted for:
G'raha Tia (potentially Oschon due to description and archers)
Papalymo (potentially Oschon due to having a companion but class doesn't match)
Thancred
Urianger
Yda (potentially Halone due to having a companion but class doesn't match, does Yda have a female rival?)
Y'shtola
Circle of Knowing members that lack the tattoo:
Alisae & Alphinaud (I was thinking they would be Nald'thal's but THM's worship Thal and that's Papalymo's class)
Minfilia
Tataru
I'm thinking it doesn't really matter if the classes match up well as, well, we change our classes easily.
The Twelve and the Archons
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07-23-2014, 05:51 AMMartaDemireuxThe Twelve and the Archons
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07-23-2014, 06:23 AMEnkidoh
Really though, that is just effectively a theory created as a result of a comment made by a npc in version 1.0 who referred to the Archons as indeed being living manifestations of the Twelve. However, the events of both 1.0 and ARR clearly show that they are very much mortal, and have the same weaknesses and problems others suffer from (in particular, the whole idea they come from giant eggs is nothing but a myth, as there is too much evidence to show that they're conceived and born in a normal way.
For instance in 1.0 Yda stated "her mother always told her she was destined for great things!", Papalymo snaps at her that "The Gridanians would think us raised in a gutter!" due to her tactlessness, of course, the existences of Alphinaud and Alisae as Louisoix's grandchildren also proves they procreate normally. Then there's G'raha Tia's unusual heritage with his Allagan eye). So yeah, I think they're not literal manifestations, but more just an 'embodiment' of the Twelve based on their wisdom, intelligence and tenacity.
Incidentally, Minfilia and Tataru are not Archons - Tataru's history is never revealed, but Minfilia was born in Ala Mhigo and who was brought to Ul'dah back in the year 1562 of the Sixth Astral Era by her father, an Ala Mhigan spy feeding false information to the Garleans, who was killed early on in the original Ul'dah story and thus Minfilia was then orphaned (her real name is Ascilia).
Sometime in 1562 she gained the power of the Echo (believed to be during the 'Fall of the Keeper' - ala the Battle of Silvertear Skies) and later she either joined or formed the secret research organization of the Echo, the Path of the Twelve, with Tataru joining and serving as it's receptionist and greeter. This was the group the player actually joined in version 1.0 (and did story quests for).
The Archons however belonged to a totally separate group called 'The Circle of Knowing' - a group of researchers and scholars from the academic centre of Sharalyan. Louisoix served as this mysterious group's leader.
After the Calamity with Louisoix's disappearance (and belived death), the remaining Archons seeked out Minfilia 'and others with her gift" and thus Minfilia agreed to combine the Path with the Circle of Knowing, thus forming the new organization, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. This is why the Scions are such a mixed bag, consisting of Sharalyan scholars and ordinary people with the Echo - they're made up of members of two totally different groups.
That's it in a kuponut shell anyway - I've probably made some mistakes or missed out info so I'm sure the Loremasters who are more knowledgeable than me on the subject can clarify things. :) -
07-23-2014, 06:26 AMAnonymooseThis is important. The legends of the Archons are real, and the last post of Hatchingtide did seem to imply that the Ascians wiped her memory so she stopped getting people so riled up about the Archons in general, but the whole "earthly incarnations of the Twelve" thing is part of a modern legend. Who knows how far back it really goes or what it originally was. Maybe it was just picked up along the way, somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
Ahldbhar seems to have been one of the Archons last time the world was in peril (Sixth Umbral Era), as he is a semi-well-known legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
In retrospect, you can assume that he was dark crystalled by Ascians during the fight to survive an Umbral Era and it was recorded in legend years ago to the best of their historians' abilities. If the Twelve have representatives, they might not be the same representatives each time around.Quote:
Ahldbhar fought relentlessly against a clan of wicked sorcerers that sought only to wreak havoc on the world through their dark powers. But then, something happened... Something that threw Ahldbhar into deep despair. And in the end, he turned and took up with the enemy, though none can say as to why.
Presumably, this is also related to the legend of the clan of immortal mages who made a blood pact with the demon lords of the Seven Hells to deliver a thousand thousand souls in exchange for sole dominion over Eorzea. The Circle of Knowing used this myth to their advantage by spreading rumours that Urianger was one of these mages. Van Darnus was so busy looking for this blasted Arcanist and his doomsday prophecies that it bought time for the others to help re-establish the Grand Companies.
But that brings us to an important point, there is a legend just like the legend of the Archons about beings called the Paragons, who are said to lead the beast tribes to the light of the primals instead of leading us to the light of the Twelve. Are the Ascians really any true friends of the tribes, even though they presented themselves as the Paragons? For all we know, Louisoix just used the term Archon to make us trust his group. "There's no time for this arguing. Forget it. We're angels and we're here to save you. Now get moving, damnit." Thancred even went as far as admitting that he had no special powers beyond a way with words and that the Circle of Knowing's intervention just seemed like the best thing to do based on interpretations of the Divine Chronicles of Mezaya Thousand-Eyes by Louisoix and Urianger. Determining which characters are most like which Gods is kind of like lining up which vague lines by Nostradamus refer to which historical events.
Unless we get more information, not much of what we have lines up very well. We're just cramming circle blocks through square holes like, "THAT FITS KIND OF." What if it's all a cyclical feedback loop ? An umbral era hits, great figures rise up to stop it, those figures are remembered as heroes, a thousand years of myth turns heroes into gods, and then another umbral era hits, great figures rise up to stop it, those figures are remembered as heroes, a thousand years of myth and people start saying those great heroes must have been reincarnations of the old gods, returned to save the world yet again.
But hey, while we're just free associating, I say Urianger is closest to Althyk. Historians and Diviners like Althyk, the surveryor of time, change, and space. Urianger is known as a historian and diviner. His surname means diviner (with the Elezen French suffix, because of course the Elezen French suffix). -
07-23-2014, 10:36 AMSaikou
>> Determining which characters are most like which Gods is kind of like lining up which vague lines by Nostradamus refer to which historical events.
This is kinda what we do here... =3
I'll bite on the Urianger = Althyk, though. The Thancred = Memphina theory amuses me, also. -
07-28-2014, 11:35 AMAlberel
I'd suggest considering who is in possession of those much-speculated-on 'keys'. Louisoix's staff was the 'key' of Thaliak was it not?
Alisae & Alphinaud have now made several mentions of their possessing another 'key' which they plan to use in some form. Assuming it's of the same nature as the one their grandfather used I would say they most likely will embody Nald'thal.
Beyond that I don't believe we know of any others currently within the Scions control.
It's worth pointing out that I don't believe the archons actually are the embodiment of any of the Twelve. We know from the 1.0 storylines that these keys empower summoning rituals in some manner so it would not be too much of a stretch to suggest the archons merely have the means to summon one of the Twelve or somehow access their power. -
07-28-2014, 10:28 PMAnonymooseSo far, only the treasure of Swallowtail Roam (the horn) has been called The Key, and it didn't seem to have any identifiably marks differentiating it from normal horns. The Key came with a sort of explanation tablet of what it was and some prophecy written in Rhotano Bloodcant, left by an ancient water-associated society. The name itself implies that they were a society living in the Rhotano who wrote their secrets in blood. We now know, thanks to Fernehalwes, that this horn simply made it easier to summon things - what it was made to summon and who used it to summon that are unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
It's so wide-open that you can connect it to any theory. I could say that a long-dead society of Vylbrand used it to summon their god and then another force (The Twelve, let's say) cast down their god and twisted all of their souls into monsters and that's the origin of the Sahagin and Leviathan. I just pulled all of that out of thin air and it still fits with everything we know. Not only that, it harkens back to ancient Greece and the Twelve Olympians casting down the primordial Titans. And yet there's no supporting evidence for that whatsoever aside from darksteeloil hat musing based on a couple of puzzle pieces.
Possibly. If it looking and quacking like a duck means its a duck, then yes. We know the staff was of a similar make to the key, meaning that it made summoning easier. That symbol is associated with Thaliak, and Lou used it to attempt to summon the Twelve. However, the Ixali have been seen with staffs with Llymlaen and Oschon's symbols. It seems awkward that they'd use them if they believed the symbols were strictly related to The Twelve. Would Garuda accept that? And then there's that the Allag carved the Twelve's symbols into runestones. Did they worship the Twelve, or did they have a different meaning for them? When we associate them with the Twelve, are we being Moggle Mogged, so to speak?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
They said the word key, but, again, nothing has been called The Key since the treasure of Swallowtail Roam. Louisoix's staff was never called a key. It has never been used in ARR in that way. It's unknown what they're referring to. It could be Louisoix's staff, it could be another summoning item, and it could be literally any object and/or plan that they've kept as an ace in their sleeve until the time was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
Lot of ways that could go. Whatever it is, it sounds like they know of Bahamut's origin and know how to use that knowledge to throw him back through the door he came from and lock it shut. It it related to THE KEYS or is it simply a key to that metaphorical door?Quote:
Will you now find a use for the secret─for the key that only you and I hold? Given our familial propensity for curiosity, you would do well to remember that keys may serve to seal doors as well as to unlock them. And Bahamut is a most unwelcome guest, to whom the door should never have been opened.
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07-30-2014, 06:21 PMAlice_89thLooking at that quote, at least without any other context, it seems to me that it is metaphorical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose