Positional attacks - where to start

I'm currently leveling a dragoon as my first job. However, in dungeons I'm sometimes struggling to get the Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive buffs. I'll sometimes need to HT a couple of times (often from the same spot) to get it to trigger.

When does the game count your position? Is it when the button is pressed, when the animation ends, so an arbitrary point in the middle? I'm wondering whether it's a lag thing, as quite often the enemies will be turning to someone else when I have to try more than once, but won't necessarily turn straight away (at least on my screen).

I would like to know this as well. Ive recently hit 50 on mnk and i always get the back attacks right for the extra potency but when i do the flank attacks they're not doing as much damage. As in crit, like they BARELY crit for me when i use the flabk attacks.

There is some latency between when you initiate the attack and when it checks your position in relation to the monster, so you will have to account for that when the mobs are moving.

The best illustration of this is when you are chasing and attacking a moving enemy. The latency will place the monster's location a little ahead of where a player is currently standing. Players can offset it by being 2-3 steps ahead (approx. half a second), predicting where the monster will be. When the position data is verified a fraction of a secondlater, you will have tricked the game in to thinking your position is actually in the ideal location for the attack to land or the desired bonus (despite the bard kiting said mob across the map in giant circles). It will take some practice to get it down, but until you do, you're probably better suited to wait until the tank settles all the mobs down.

The position check happens when you hit the skill. You can for example hit Impulse Drive at the targets rear and move to it's flank right away, while the animation is going off, and it will count because the check was made when you initiated it. This is important, since some skills can have rather long animations, and thinking you need to wait for them will mess you up.

That said, there is the issue of latency with enemy positions. When there is any reason for an enemy to turn (either someone else gets hate, or it faces a player as part of one of its attaack mechanics) the orientation of the enemy is updated immediately in the background, and then the animation of the enemy turning occurs.

What does this mean? It means that, if you know that the target is going to turn, for whatever reason, you should position yourself to attack based on where his flank/rear is going to be in the next second or so, not where it is while it's turning or just about to turn.

For instance when Titan looks back to do a landslide and you do your standard evasive maneuvers but then you want to carry on attacking when he's done. When you go in to do let's say Heavy Thrust, don't try to time Heavy Thrust so you hit his flank visually as he's turning back, but go to where his flank actually will be once he's facing the tank again and do it there. If he visually turns during the animation of your hit, you should be fine.

The general idea is, any sort of check for skills are done at the instance of initiation, including position checks, buff checks, accuracy checks. The instance you hit a skill, a snapshot of your context is taken to be considered in any and all calculations. Everything visual, like animations, are eyecandy that follows the math. Enemy positions similarly are much more erratic. They will be facing one direction, then almost instantly be facing another when they have to. The game just visually shows them turning at a more natural pace to appear smoother.

As Anova said, because of latency the server position for the mob is a little bit ahead of what you see. If a mob is in the middle of turning it can be nearly impossible to judge where the correct position is for the server. I've also had issues where I don't get the bonus because the mob turns immediately after I attack (after on my screen, but it must have been before on the server). There are a few bosses that move a lot of their own will, but usually a tank should be holding things relatively still for you.

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Originally Posted by NargaHuntress

... like they BARELY crit for me when i use the flabk attacks.

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There aren't any critical hit bonuses associated with flank attacks, while bootshine will crit 100% of the time from the rear (in opo-opo stance). It would be extremely unlikely that you'd crit just as often with your flank attacks as your rear attacks. Also, you can get a critical hit from teh wrong position. The correct position for any (nearly all) of MNK's attacks only increases the potency.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The position check happens when you hit the skill. You can for example hit Impulse Drive at the targets rear and move to it's flank right away, while the animation is going off, and it will count because the check was made when you initiated it. This is important, since some skills can have rather long animations, and thinking you need to wait for them will mess you up.

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Now that I think about it, I also realize that player facing can change almost instantly (for anyone who has paid attention to casters during their spellcasts when surrounded). It stands to reason the design team wouldn't write separate code for enemy facing given the time schedule for ARR's development.

Thanks for the information everyone. It certainly seems to be describing what's happening to me. Basically key things to remember are:

1. If an enemy is turning, start the action where it will be, not where the model is.
2. Moving during the animation is fine

Is that right? I'll try and pay a bit more attention tonight and see if that sorts the issue.

I've had weird results on my Monk while leveling. After you do a rotation that grants greased lightning, Bootshine has a bonus of critting 100% of the time as long as you are behind the target. I've found I have to be behind the mob upon execution of the skill up until the damage number appears. If I start it from the side and move to the rear it won't crit, most of the time. If I start from the rear and move to the side, chances are it won't crit.. though sometimes it will.

Snap Punch deals extra damage from the flank, as will Twin Snakes. I've found that if I'm at the flank upon execution but move before the damage appears.. it WILL do full damage most of the time. Its only a rare occurrence that it doesn't.

This is all assuming the mob isn't turning or moving. When mobs start moving, or the tank has to turn them to avoid a cone. All kinds of unpredictable shtuff starts happening.