Ok so been playing around with gear sets a lot lately and just curious if anyone can figure this out for me. My preference when tanking is a very high dps build due to parry stacking so bad. I still spec Vit and I still use fending acc on harder content while MTing. Before lately I have prioritized Weapon Dam>Vit=Str>Acc Cap>DET>CHR>SS>Parry I do still end up getting quite a bit of parry either way capping acc.
My question is all about SS. Lately I have read that at 441 SS you can squeeze in more moves on your Unchained/Berserk/InternalRelease Rotation. Given this information I can see that by stacking SS and switching 1 fending ring to the high Allagan ring and eating courel I can accomplish this number while still hitting acc cap. Would this be an ideal setup for MTing and focusing on as much DPS as possible or is the Det and CHR still the way to go? Also currently at ILvl 100 and dps sits between 180-230 in defiance. Would like to make sure this is where it should be. Or if I can squeeze anymore out. Any advice and tips would be amazing. It\\'s really hard to find advice of this style of tanking online.
Warrior Best In Slot MT Dps
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07-05-2014, 02:57 AMopengripWarrior Best In Slot MT Dps
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07-05-2014, 04:25 AMDonjo
Well, it's harder to find advice on the "DPS Tank" because it's the more dangerous way to tank. I personally think that people undervalue Parry because it's meant to periodically make tough hits easier to weather instead of giving you a noticeably larger Effective HP pool, but that's neither here nor there.
If you're sitting around 200 in Defiance with Fending Accessories on, you're doing something right somewhere. The Skill Speed discussion isn't just for DPS, however. It's also theorized to increase mitigation because an increase in Wrath Generation Speed leads to a greater uptime for Inner Beast. Either way, I think it sounds like a sound avenue to pursue. Even if you lose a little DPS out of it, the increased mitigation would probably be worth it. -
07-05-2014, 05:37 AMopengrip
The problem is over an 11 min fight it only gives you 1 extra inner beast. Most fights enrage at this point. And that's if you never stop attacking. Therefor stacking SS for mitigation purposes really doesn't add up that well for me. It does however allow for less debuffs falling off and more moves between UC/BZ/IR. I see more dps potential from this myself I'm just not sure if it adds up to having the same dps as DET/CHR. If it was very similar then the mitigation factor would matter more to me as a slight advantage.
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07-05-2014, 06:27 AMKitruThe mitigation benefits of skill speed due to increased Inner Beast uptime doesn't operate at specific tiers (which the "number of attacks per CD" is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
It takes an average of 7.33 GCDs to get to Wrath 5, which is 8.33 GCDs between Inner Beasts. With a 2.5 sec GCD, that's one Inner Beast every 20.325 secs; with a 2.41 (2.5 - (441 - 341) * 0.0009523) sec GCD, that's one Inner Beast every 20.032 secs. Inner Beasts lasts 6 seconds so that's 28.81% potential uptime with 2.5 sec GCD and 29.52% uptime with a 2.22 sec potential uptime. 28.81% uptime translates into a 5.76% reduction in damage taken with no speed, and 29.52% uptime translates into a 5.90% reduction in damage taken over time with 100 skill speed. So, all of that speed ends up being .142% (less than one-fifth of 1 percent) better potential mitigation (both magic and physical; parry is purely physical).
The problem with this, of course, is that you do not always use Inner Beast immediately. More often than not, it's better to hold on to Inner Beast because the devs love burst damage so very much, which eliminates the mitigation advantage of speed.
100 Parry translates into a 7.6% increase in parry rate ((441 - 341) * .076. With a 26% parry value, that's a 1.976% reduction in damage taken.
So, yeah, unless you're dealing with a fight where more than 86.1% of the damage is magical damage, the Parry is the better choice where mitigation is concerned.
As to the damage benefits, skill speed doesn't reduce auto-attack speed so, assuming the best damage attack string (SE>BB), you'll have (pre-global modifiers like Maim and SE) 206.67 pot/GCD ((150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280) / 6) from special attacks; factor in the 83.33 pot/GCD you get from auto-attacks and that's 290 potency, of which your special attacks make up 71.71%. A 2.41 sec GCD is a 3.73% increase in attack speed. As such, the increase in damage is 5.53 pot/GCD (0.0373 * 0.7171 * 206.67).
There's a bit more to it than that though. The main reason you stack skill speed in the first place is to get that extra attack with Berserk (best applied to an Inner Beast with IB>Infuriate>IB at the end of the optimal UBIR). You do the UBIR every 120 secs (that's 48 GCDs with a 2.5 sec GCD; the previous math for skill speed turns it from a reduction in GCD to a flat damage buff); IB is effectively 400 potency (300 / .75) which gets the full UBIR buff for 560 potency (400 * 1.4), which is 160 more than you would get with an IB used outside of the UBIR. 160 extra potency every 48 GCDs into an extra 3.33 pot/GCD.
The total pot/GCD pre-global modifiers for WAR is 290; the skill speed provides us with an extra 8.86 pot/GCD or a 3.05% increase to total DPS (298.86 / 290).
The question then, is how much damage does 100 crit or 100 DET provide, so that we have something to compare it to. I don't have a formula for DET's contributions, but each point of Crit adds .0714% to the base chance (10% from what I've found). 100 Crit would then provide a 7.14% increase to crit chance, which is a 71.4% increased occurrences of crits. Crits deal half again as much damage as a normal hit, so 100 crit would provide a 3.57% increase to total damage.
Ergo, the Crit is going to add more damage than the speed will. It's entirely likely that DET will as well.
As such, speed isn't the stat to use, whether you're looking for damage (crit/det) or mitigation (parry).
A further question would them be whether it's better to stack for mitigation or damage. To review, 100 parry reduces damage taken by 1.976% whereas 100 crit increases your own damage by 3.57%. A tank deals roughly half of the damage of a DPS, and there are generally 2 tanks for every DPS, so tanks constitute 20% of total damage which translates into a .714% (20% of 3.57%) increase in total damage which further translates into fights taking 99.3% as long as they would otherwise take, an effective .7% reduction in healing required. Since parry only affects physical damage, unless the fight is at least ~65% magical damage, Parry is going to be the better "effective mitigation" stat. -
07-05-2014, 08:12 AMopengripThanks Kitru! You truly are a math wizard and definitely helped clear a few things up but also gave more more questions. You definitely debunked Skill speed for mitigation or Dam. But looking at stacking parry vs CHR didn't really add up for me. First off you have to consider that you have three stats CHR DET and SS that all have to be measured up against parry. All three stats will always add up quicker then parry. Also I've heard from a few people that parry has a soft cap is this true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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07-05-2014, 09:42 AMKitruYou only have to compare Parry against any of the three because it's not as if you have to choose between 20 parry or 20 crit *and* 20 speed. Any parry you have takes the place of what could have been spent on an equal amount of crit or speed (or, in the case of DET, ~2/3rds). You're going to get crit/speed/DET even while maxing Parry no matter what, especially since the only other stat is acc, which has an explicit softcap. The question is whether it's better to ignore Parry in favor of more crit/DET/speed, not whether you should be getting crit/DET/speed while maxing Parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by opengrip
There is no evidence that this is true. It's important to note that the gains from a small amount of parry are tiny and barely noticeable. It's ~.076% per point. The 19 parry on the Noct Choker is only increasing your parry chance by ~1.44%, so it's going to be really hard to see unless you're dealing with big differences in parry chance.Quote:
Also I've heard from a few people that parry has a soft cap is this true?
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07-05-2014, 10:48 AMopengrip
From everything that I've read the returns on DET are better then CHR. And your correct it is always a direct trade for parry to another stat but there are always 2 out of 5 2ndary stats that you need to consider not 1 out of 2. If it's between parry and acc vs DET and CHR then you are trading parry for DET and CHR. Acc is only good in coil and after you cap is useless. Just a small example I'll try to put some actual numbers together to make this more accurate.
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07-05-2014, 11:53 AMopengrip
OK so the difference I'm seeing when I put together my 2 sets one parry stacked and the other not are as follows:
Parry-126
SS-31
Det+78
CHR+32
From everything that I have seen CHR is weighted to roughly 2/3 of Det. Making Det closer to 117 + 32=149CHR.
SS is weighted more closer to 1/2 of Det from what I can find. Which makes 31SS closer to a value of 10.3. 149-10.3=138.7
138.7 CHR vs 126 Parry
Not sure if this helps any or if my math is 100% accurate as I was rounding a lot with the stat weights that I found.
Parry Set
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/N0G9
No Parry
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/N0GA -
07-05-2014, 12:26 PMArgyle_DarkheartI posted about this in the "Warrior Skill Speed > Parry" thread, twice, but I guess you missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by opengrip
You only NEED 376 Skill Speed (35 from gear) in order to achieve a 9-hit Berserk. However, you have to delay the activation of Berserk between GCDs such that the Berserk animation ends just as your GCD comes up; all more Skill Speed does beyond that is widen the timing. -
07-05-2014, 12:48 PMopengripAwesome ya sorry I wanted to widen on the topic a bit so i figured a new thread would help! Good info!Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart