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Originally Posted by
Eylev
Kitru.. How much damage does Sword Oath can do? Its 50 but not 50%.. And that's only applicable to auto attack (Correct me if im wrong).
Sword Oath does an extra 50 damage with each auto-attack, which happens more than once per GCD so the baseline estimate I was going with (one hit per GCD) is actually underestimating PLD DPS in Sword Oath.
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You are right on berserk though but how does maim skill this advantage "disappear" out from a warrior?
Because you're acting as if PLD and WAR have the same base damage before multipliers, which they do not. A WAR has a fair deal *less* damage pre-multipliers because PLD has Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within.
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War does and able to do more damage than a PLD. It's depending on how you are going to play with it, combining what kind of based class skills & cross class skills before entering a dungeon.. Too bad you cant proved that..
I've already proven it elsewhere. Let me prove it, once again, right here and now. To clarify, we're talking about WAR outside of Defiance and PLD in Sword Oath. These are *not* tank active numbers. Furthermore, there is no difference between the damage that a sword and an axe deal. The only difference *at all* is that Sword Oath does more damage with a faster weapon and, as previously stated, I'm acting as if the weapon speed for it were 2.5 for simplicity's sake, which ends up underestimating PLD DPS by a small amount.
The only additional that is going to improve a WAR's DPS is Internal Release. It provides 20% additional crit for 15 seconds every 60 seconds. With a baseline 10% crit rate and 50% additional damage from crits, this amounts to a 9.5% ((1+3*.5)/(1+.1*.5)) increase in damage with 25% uptime (15/60), which equates to a monumental 2.375% (9.5 * .25) increase in damage dealt.
Berserk has separate benefits for auto-attacks and special attacks thanks to pacification. For auto attacks, Berserk provides 50% additional damage for 20 seconds every 90 seconds, or 11.1% increase to damage (1/.9, yet again). For special attacks, it provides a 50% increase for 20 seconds and a -100% debuff for 5 seconds every 90 seconds. Effectively, it's got a 10 second duration so that amounts to 5.56% increase to damage (.5/.9).
Maim is a 20% increase in damage on a permanent basis. Storm's Eye is a ~11.1% (1/.9) increase in damage dealt, but it applies to both PLD and WAR if there is a WAR present.
Fight or Flight provides a 30% increase in damage dealt for 30 seconds every 90 seconds, which amounts to a 10% increase in damage dealt over time. Spirits Within deals 300 potency every 30 seconds (as DPS, you shouldn't be taking damage), and Circle of Scorn provides 250 potency every 25 seconds. As such, that's an extra 25 damage per GCD (300/30*2.5; 250/25*2.5) since they're both off GCD.
Fracture provides a DPS increase by providing a 220 potency attack every 3 Halone uses. This necessitates some downtime on the debuff, but it's required to prevent interrupting a combo or clipping ticks. For a WAR, it's 300, but the optimal rotation clips one tick so it's practically only 280.
Auto-attacks provides a baseline 83.33 potency per GCD (2.5/3). Sword Oath provides 50 additional potency with every auto attack hit and swords tend to have attack speeds in the 2.1-2.3 range, but, as previously stated, I'm simplifying which underestimates performance slightly.
The effective rotations for each are as follows:
PLD: Halone>Halone>Halone>Frac (150 + 200 + 260 + 150 + 200 + 260 + 150 + 200 + 260 + 220) = 205 per GCD
WAR: SE>BB>Frac>SE>BB (150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280 + 300 + 150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280) = 213.85 per GCD
The total damage formulas are then...
WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * /.9 * 1.02375 = 434.39 potency per GCD
PLD (without WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 50 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 = 427.16 potency per GCD
PLD (with WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 50 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 / .9 = 474.63 potency per GCD
So, yeah, PLD in Sword Oath deals only slightly *less* damage than WAR outside of Defiance *and that's underestimating PLD damage*. WAR has a lot of damage modifiers but it has a lower base value to act upon. This is the issue that people keep forgetting. It's not like PLD and WAR start off with the same base damage and WAR ends up doing more thanks to a crapton of amazing multipliers. PLD ends up doing more because Fight or Flight is flipping awesome, Berserk is terrible, and Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are, effectively, a 14.78% increase in total DPS (it's even larger in Shield Oath because it doesn't have that pesky 50+ additional getting in the way).
The only reason a PLD will deal less damage than a WAR is if said PLD isn't using the tools given to them like they should be. If they're not using Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within, their DPS plummets (372 potency per GCD).
Now, because I know you're going to ask for it, here are the numbers while in their relevant tank stances. Everything is the same except that they have their relevant damage multipliers (.75 for Defiance, .8 for Shield Oath), PLD no longer gets the +50 potency, and WAR gets a 4.76% increase to DPS from Wrath V ((1+.2*.5)/(1+.1*.5)). Internal Release actually drops its contribution to 2.72% increase (((1 + .4 * .5)/(1+.2 * .5) - 1)*(15 / 60)).
(Edit: I'm adding a pure Butcher's Block, max enmity generation formula; base DPS per GCD is 210: (150 + 200 + 280) / 3)
(Edit: Butcher's Block is actually inferior to a new combo rotation that I've been playing with: BB>BB>SE; the math on it is slightly more complex because you're sacrificing 100% uptime on SE, but I'm adding it as well; the damage numbers are 630 for a BB combo and 610 for SE)
WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 /.9 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 342.45 potency per GCD
WAR (Butcher's Block):
(210 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 253.56 potency per GCD
WAR (BB>BB>SE):
((2 * (630) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 325.3 potency per GCD
PLD (without WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 297.73 potency per GCD
PLD (with WAR)
(205 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 / .9 = 330.8 potency per GCD
A PLD without a WAR around to provide the debuff deals 86.9% of the damage that a WAR does, but as soon as you go WAR + PLD, the PLD gets pretty damned close (96.60%). Of course, as soon as you start not using Inner Release and Berserk on CD in order to maximize mitigation through Inner Beast, the WAR number starts going down pretty quickly. A PLD can use his CDs as quickly as possible without negatively impacting anything.
(Edit: By maximizing enmity generation using the BB>BB>SE combo, WAR damage drops a fair deal, reducing the DPS advantage. With 2 WARs, you can do some really dangerous things if you know how to cycle SE combos properly to maintain 100% uptime while using BB>BB>BB>SE>Fracture, but that requires the WAR synchronize adding in a Fracture use would increase damage but creates some problems with maintaining uptime and combos. If you do it right, you actually maintain *better* damage than a WAR solo.)
Basically, there is no DPS advantage to using 2 WARs (Edit: You *can* get a DPS advantage out of running 2 WARs, but it is *really* hard to manage and requires a lot of precision between both players). To max out damage, comically enough, you want a PLD offtank and a WAR main tank since PLD does a crapton more damage with Sword Oath than a WAR does without Defiance. Of course, the maximization of said damage is actually a comparatively small amount of damage. The difference between a PLD tank and a WAR tank exclusive of one another, is a whopping 31 potency per GCD. When you consider that each DPS is going to do in excess of twice the damage that a tank will deal (try holding aggro with just the Storm's Eye combo and Defiance; Defiance has a 2x enmity modifier so you should be able to match/compete for aggro unless DPS does a crapton more) and that there are twice as many DPS as tanks, that 40 DPS amounts to a whole 2.67% (40/(300+600+600) increase in total damage dealt. In an 8 man group, the difference is even smaller because you've got twice as much DPS.
Furthermore, here's the math for enmity generation.
Tank stances double enmity generation. Crits do not generate any extra enmity beyond that caused by their increased damage.
Halone generates 2050 enmity per cycle pre-tank stance (150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5). Put that into the optimized combo and you get 637 enmity per GCD ((2050 * 3 + 220) / 10) before multipliers and additional potency.
Butcher's Block generates 2150 enmity per cycle pre-tank stance (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5). Storm's Eye generates only 610 (150 + 190 + 270). Put that into the optimized combo and you get 446.15 enmity per GCD ((2150 * 2 +610 * 2 + 280)/13)). (Edit: I'll also include a enmity generation numbers for pure Butcher's Block spam, which is 716.67 enmity per GCD)
(Edit: adding BB>BB>SE numbers)
WAR:
(446.15 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 /.9 * (1 + .0476) * (1 + .0272) * .75 * 2 = 1212.66 enmity potency per GCD
WAR (Butcher's Block only):
(716.67 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * (1 + .0476) * (1 + .0272) * .75 * 2 = 1370.43 enmity potency per GCD
WAR (BB>BB>SE):
(((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 * 2 = 1403.18 enmity potency per GCD
PLD (without WAR):
(637 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 = 1355.78 enmity potency per GCD
PLD (with WAR):
(637 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 / .9 = 1506.70 enmity potency per GCD
Pay no attention to the italicized. It is conclusions derived from from old numbers that I'm leaving for historical perspective.
WARs *do* generate a metric shitton more enmity than a PLD does (this actually surprised me; thanks to the difference in spamming Halone v. alternating BB and SE, I fully expected PLD to win out handily, but the PLD "bonuses" are flat value whereas the WAR bonuses are multipliers so, because baseline enmity generation is higher for both, the bonuses that PLD gets are *heavily* diluted). This is the *only* advantage that WAR has. Of course, a PLD is more than capable of maintaining all of the threat that it might need and redundant enmity is completely pointless: there's no difference between having 1 billion more enmity than the DPS and having 1 more enmity; either way, you have aggro. As such, the "advantage" is less important that it might otherwise be.
Editing in new conclusions:
Apparently my initial belief that PLD is better at enmity generation is supported: PLD *does* generate better enmity per GCD because it gets to spam its high enmity combo ad nauseum. This just makes WAR look even worse: you have to choose between slightly better damage but dramatically worse enmity generation, likely enough to have really good DPS riding your ass nice and hard, or enmity generation that just *barely* edges out PLD along with utterly abysmal DPS. It would be interesting to get a conversion rate between DPS potency value and tank potency value to determine what the relative enmity generation between the two is. As it stands, we can only guess at whether WAR actually has enough to keep aggro off of a mathematically perfect DPS.
Edit after adding BB>BB>SE:
WAR can manage to edge out PLD in solo enmity generation. A PLD with a WAR is still going to match DPS while generating slightly better damage. Really, nothing really changes about the end conclusions since the two classes are still effectively identical. Pointing out the fact that the differences between the two classes are minute, which was the point of all of this, is still completely valid.
P.S. Previous maths I did didn't account for Wrath V and Internal Release, hence the discrepancy with those numbers.
P.S.S Yes, I recognize that I'm reversing my position on enmity generation between the two, but I've got no problem changing my view based upon math and evidence.
P.S.S.S Holy crap, all of that math was fun.
P.S.S.S.S After further revision and correction of numbers, apparently my initial view on enmity generation were correct. No, I'm not flip flopping. I follow the numbers, and we're continually honing them.