Heyo!
Having some extra myth points to dump I'm contemplating picking up SMN as my next off-class, seeing how my FC is almost devoid of any of them. However, I have some questions for the more experienced Summoners of you out there:
1)
In what order do you apply your DoTs? My first instinct was to apply in the order of BioII -> Miasma -> Bio, longest to shortest. However, on a second review, Bio does more potency. Should I apply Bio first for that extra DPS effeciency?
2)
Shadow Flare, do you constantly put it up? I heard something about them reseting the hidden potency (tooltip said 25, but in reality did 34), is this true?
3)
For AOE-damage, do you think MiasmaII and/or Tri-disaster is worth it?
4)
Does Aerial Slash replace Garuda's auto-attack, or is it "complementary"? With other words, is it worth using on single targets?
5)
Does Spur and Rouse stack properly? Should I chain them, or use them whenever their CD is up, regardless if they're used at the same time? I guess if they're stacking, that would be the best time to use Enkindle.
6)
I'm currently leveling up an Archer for Quelling Strike, however I could see that you would rarely have any real enmity issues, with how the damage rather builds up slowly than being instantly bursty. Do you find good uses for Quelling Strike?
7)
And last, but not least, how DOES Summoner DPS fair against others? This seems to be a very twisted debate, with several people completely shunning them off as being the least useful, while I've also heard that SE themselves says that SMN does the most DPS.
I realise it's a lot of questions, so feel free to answer any number of them, should you feel to weigh in with your own experience.
Thanks in advance,
Fallstrider
New to Summoning
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02-06-2014, 10:25 PMFallstriderNew to Summoning
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02-06-2014, 10:39 PMKaosPrimeZero
1)
In what order do you apply your DoTs? My first instinct was to apply in the order of BioII -> Miasma -> Bio, longest to shortest. However, on a second review, Bio does more potency. Should I apply Bio first for that extra DPS effeciency?
The reason this is the best rotation for it is that they all fall off at an almost level time, back to back. Also with the aformentioned rotation you could start RS > B2 > M > B1 > Fester/Contagion > etc This way the dots will be up for a longer period in a sustained time so you can reapply all 3 together when down.
2)
Shadow Flare, do you constantly put it up? I heard something about them reseting the hidden potency (tooltip said 25, but in reality did 34), is this true?
i use this when i have swiftcast up, otherwise the duration to get it up is a dps loss iirc
5)
Does Spur and Rouse stack properly? Should I chain them, or use them whenever their CD is up, regardless if they're used at the same time? I guess if they're stacking, that would be the best time to use Enkindle.
afaik they stack. Going by my above rotation to continue i go ruin > spur > ruin 2 > rouse > Fester/Enkindle
hope this helps somewhat -
02-06-2014, 11:15 PMRyuko
1)
I apply Bio II > Miasma > Bio. Depending on the situation, I will immediately follow this with Fester or Raging Strikes + Fester if I'm going for burst damage. If Contagion is up, I will also usually use it. (Miasma II is good to use before you extend dots with contagion, but only if you are actually near the mob and aren't wasting time putting it on. It's not worth it if you can't extend it with Contagion.)
2)
I'm not sure if the potency was altered or different from the tooltip, but I like to throw down Shadowflare whenever I have Swiftcast up (assuming I trust the party enough to not die and need a Swiftcast+Raise). Please remember not to use Shadowflare in situations where you don't want to kill certain things (example: Spiny plume in Garuda extreme). For your AoE rotation, I would suggest Bio II > Miasma > Bio I > Bane > Miasma II. If there are a lot of adds, or they are harder to kill than usual... throw a Contagion on after you cast your dots but BEFORE you Bane.
3)
Tri-disaster has a longer cast time, higher mp cost, and less damage than the BLM cross-class skill Blizzard II. The only time you should be using Tri-disaster over Blizzard II is if it is unsafe to actually move up and cast Blizzard II (it is an AoE around your body). Yes, Miasma II is 'worth it' for AoE. Remember -- it is an AoE AROUND you (I once had to explain this to a SMN who I saw using it in the field far away from the mobs). Unfortunately, it is not Baneable... so it's a flat 15 second duration no matter what you do (except for when you use contagion on one mob). Miasma II is not worth it on single target unless you Contagion it. Tri-disaster and Blizzard II both bind the mob, but Tri-disaster lasts longer.
4)
I am not 100% sure, but I am willing to assume that it is 'queued up' as a normal move, in place of her 'auto attack', Wing Blade. The reason I say this is because Contagion will NOT go off immediately when you command her to use it... rather, Garuda-Egi may linger a second or two (probably finishing up a cast).
5)
They do in fact stack, and yes your 'ideal' moment would be when you are using Enkindle -- considering that is the point where you will want to push out more burst damage anyway. After that, just pop them on cooldown. As you learn the timing of each fight, you will know when you can pop Rouse+Spur in order to have them 'ready' for the ideal timing of Enkindle.
6)
I could see Quelling Strikes as useful when partying with a tank you greatly outgear or outskill. Even with my full i90 set and hard-hitting DPS, I never pull from good tanks. By the time I get all my dots up on a new add, I can fester without risk of pulling off the tank that just picked it up. I'm not sure how Quelling Strikes works with DoTs. It is worth having in your arsenal, in any case, but Raging Strikes is the cross-class bard ability you really want.
7)
This is a very tricky question, and one I will try to answer as unbiased as possible. I love summoner, but I will be the first to admit that each caster (smn/blm) has its advantages and disadvantages in a fight. Sometimes, these advantages and disadvantages are apparent during each PHASE of a fight.
Summoners tend to parse higher on fights that require a lot of dodging and movement... basically because of a combination of our dots and the fact that many of our abilities are instant. BLM, on the other hand, functions on stacks that increase damage, procs, and 'long' casts. However, BLM truly shine where adds are involved. Our DoTs make us a formidable opponent, but BLM is able to burst adds down immediately. We need to put up dots and spread them first.
A fight that interestingly juxtaposes the strengths/weaknesses of SMN/BLM is Ifrit Extreme. The fight requires a lot of dodging, but there is also a few phases where you have to kill nails. These nails can't die at the same time (because they give a stacking debuff), and they aren't close enough for mass DoT spread (you can only spread to two at a time in the last nail phase). BLM truly shine on this part because of their ability to stand still and quickly burst down each nail. There's little movement during nail phase. SMN has to build up the dots, spread, move to the next set, dots, spread, etc. On the other hand, SMN will GREATLY outdo BLM on Ifrit himself -- because there is so much dodging, and BLM are constantly losing their fire stacks if Ifrit jumps to dash, Inferno, or eruptions spawn and you need to run.
I have SMN and BLM at i90, and have played them both in endgame content. They truly both have their strengths and weaknesses. I personally prefer SMN, though, and as long as your group is balanced with good dps... the weaknesses of either class in any particular fight or phase won't truly matter. I've done Ifrit Extreme as BLM because our party's dps wasn't high enough on the last set of nails, but I've also done SMN when it was... and Ifrit died faster as a result because I was able to do more damage than a BLM could while dodging. -
02-06-2014, 11:48 PMDBthaONEIt's somewhat quicker to cast in order you posted. (4 seconds versus 6 seconds.) I cast in that order, as well as other summoners I've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
I would only put it up when you have swiftcast available since it takes 3 seconds. Since it lasts 30 seconds, it does a good deal of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
Miasma ll is very worth it, especially if there's more than 4 monsters. Tri-disaster... Not so much, since it lasts 15 seconds and is pretty much useless with ranged monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
Garuda-egi doesn't technically have an auto-attack. But she Casts Wind Blade in"obey" whenever she wants, so that's the closest thing she has to an auto-attack. I guess Aerial Slash would be considered "complimentary" but useless with only 1 monster since it's weaker than wind blade and has a longer cast time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
Use them whenever they are up since they stack and have different cool down time. Enkindle is the best time to have both on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
Quelling Strikes is pretty much useless. I've never seen a summoner take aggro unless the tank is really bad. I could maybe see using "Hawk's eye" if you're dealing with monsters and your accuracy is low, thus you are missing some casts, but if that's the case you have a bigger problem on hand. "Raging Strikes" is pretty much the only thing worth using from Archer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
With less monsters and long fights, such as primals, summoners are master damage dealers. This is because their DoTs are always doing damage, as well as their pets. This is even more true on fights where dodging is a serious issue. Conversely, dealing with many monsters or monsters that need to die quickly, summoners are less spectacular. However, there aren't many high level fights like that. (Remember Bane only works on up to 4 targets, but Shadowflare and Miasma 2 work on all.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
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02-06-2014, 11:58 PMT0rin
1) It would technically be more efficient to apply Bio first, for the reason you mentioned. Over the course of a long fight, you'll refresh all your DoTs several times, so it is a fairly moot point which order you cast them in, initially. Most people prefer Bio II > Miasma I > Bio I, simply for the ease of keeping track of them, as it clumps the recast of each DoT in a fairly back to back order. But in terms of pure DPS efficiency, casting Bio I first would be best. But against multiple targets, it woudl be best do cast Bio I last, because for purposes of Baning, you don't get the simple option of recasting the DoT, you need the single casts of the DoTs to last (as a group) as long as possible. In this case, it is more DPS efficient to cast Bio I last.
2) I constantly put it up, unless it is against a single target that will not stand in it for at least 12 seconds. (the breakpoint where it becomes more efficient to cast than Ruin)
4) Aerial Slash is an 'instead of' to Wind Slash. So it would be complementary. Garuda would skip a cast of Wind Slash in order to cast Aerial Slash. But unlike Wind Slash, Aerial Slash has a CD, and could not be spammed.
5) Generally speaking, use them whenever their CD is up. You can use Rouse once a minute, Spur once every two minutes. Over the course of a two minute period, you should have cast Rouse twice and Spur once. And always make sure both are cast when using Enkindle. (once every five minutes)
6) In the end game, with a well geared tank, you don't really need it. It is better on BLM who puts out big, bursty damage. Since our damage is spread between us and our pet, and it comes on slow at first (unless Baned), it has little benefit. I've pretty much stopped using Quelling Strikes for all end game content as I feel it is a waste of the 1 second animation. It is really for those situations where you may be DFing content and really overgear your tank.
7) SMN has the best single target DPS. In terms of AoE, it probably ranks third behind DRG and BLM on groups of more than 4 targets. It probably ranks first or second (with BLM) on groups of 4 or less targets. The reason SMN gets shunned as being least useful, is so few people who play the class know what they are doing. (on average) -
02-07-2014, 12:48 AMFallstrider
Thanks for all the well formed answers!
It seems that SMN basically comes down to having DoTs up at all times, proper use of pet CDs, knowing when to Bane and when to Fester, and simply spamming Ruin (Ruin II whenever you have off-GCD spells to cast) as filler. Somewhat in that order. Any other tips for an aspiring Summoner?
I also have a more specific gameplay question:
When mobs or mob-like things spawn that needs to be burst down quickly (for example Napalms in CT, Conflagrations/Dreadknights in Turn 5) what is your course of action? Whenever Bane is available for spreading it should of course be used, but when it's not? Is it best to put up your three DoTs and then Fester, or just Bio and Ruin-spam? -
02-07-2014, 12:53 AMT0rinIf Baning existing DoTs (works on conflags and dread knights, not on napalms), the most efficient method depends on how long you expect it to stay alive. If you think it might live for 10+ seconds, putting your DoTs out and Festering is probably the best method, otherwise a single Bio I and Ruin is probably your best choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallstrider
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02-07-2014, 02:14 AMDBthaONE
^ This is correct. To give further enlightenment, I would say if the mob needs to die quickly and you have others helping, then using Bio and spamming Ruin is your best choice. That's because you'd be doing more damage than casting two other dots and using Fester, especially since the mob may be dead before then.