My issue with the current classes/jobs

First of all, I love this game... and if im posting this is because I do care, and somehow I wanted to use the forum as a way of expression and hopefully one of the devs sees this and maybe they can take this as a suggestion to improve the game :)


Well, before I continue, I have to admit I never played FFXI although I read about the game. I have been an avid mmorpg player for about 10 years, one of my favorite MMO's has been Mabinogi and Ragnarok Online. I never played WoW (well maybe for like 15 and I hated it), but I did played some other mmos, like Tera, GW2, Secret World, etc.


I have noticed something about the game, that for me its starting to be an issue, and my fear is that these mechanics are being one of the core elements in the game design. I am talking about the current skillset for the Jobs/clases.

Since v1 I have noticed that even though each class/job has a unique skill or gameplay, the difference betwen them is not really that substantial. I mean of course theres a difference betwen playing a DPS or a Tank, whoever, theres almost no difference between playing a Scholar or a Whitemage.

I mean, if we look at a scholar and a whitemage, they have some differences, which makes them more suitable to certain situations, however as a player, its almost the same identical way to play those clases. Its like having Adloquim VS Cure, one heals for more, and one heals with a shield.... they are different, but in the end, as a player I ended up pressing the same key over and over again to heal the tank.

Each dungeon, and each part of the game, is being designed into three mayor roles (tank, DPS and healer), with some subcategories for DPS (melee DPS , ranged DPS and magic DPS). In my opinión that leaves little to no freedom for new classes.

I would love to see into the game exciting classes like "fecas shield", "time magi" or a "Gambler" like in Wakfu, or even a real battle alchemist like in Mabinogi, or even a Mesmer (with illusions) like in GW2, or even something like a real Bard (lets face its a regular archer with mana for mages). Heck, I even read about "moggle" or "frog" status as a suggestion in one post.

The current gameplay is more focused on dodging and avoiding stuff than having a strategy or even having "fun". The whole game is focused on "Dodge" which brings issues about players (blaming, lag, and little opportunity for ppl to learn), instead of being focused on having variety in the skills, and even having a unique sense to each class.

I think the best example of this was the summoner class, in which we all expected a "summon" and instead we got an "egi". I think that the look of the "egi" is just one of the main issue, but theres another... playing a BLM and a summoner, isnt really a huge difference... As a BLM you rotate from fire to ice spells over and over... as a summoner you summon garuda, and then you press the same keys over and over, while you apply ur DoTs... It may sound different, but in the end, you are just doing the same thing... You even have tri-disaster for SMn for the binding status and Freeze for BLM... I kinda wish there could be more variety.

My concern is that even though I wish for more variety, I dont expect it, since the game is being developed focused in the three big pillars "DPS, Tank, Healer". A class like a "Time Mage" wouldnt even fit those roles, and even if does, the only thing they would make him, is to have a skill similar of Shadow Flare or Lethargy .....


TL;DR: The game is being developed, so that all the classes/Jobs fit one roll (dps, tanks, healer) this brings little to zero chance of having unique classes like time mage, gambler, illusionist, or a real summoner.

PD: Sorry for my english :( its not my first language.

Even though you said you weren't familiar with FFXI, it sounds like you want their job system. Have a main job and a sub job, where you could use a certain amount of the subjob's abilities and traits. Change the sub job for different occasions.

This is game design 101. Easy to learn but hard to master. For example; when tanking you hold hate by doing your threat rotation. New tanks will spam op to grab hate from other trash while pro tanks will split their rotation between the targets. That being said the game is still relatively new, we only saw one major update. Too soon to tell but as it stands there's enough of a difference for me when i switch between my pld and war to still keep me on my toes.

I just wish there were a couple more ways to tank, and one more way to heal...

i didnt quite get what actually u want to convey, what i do understand is that u want to have more unique class or mechanism
in GW2 the 3 pillars is still there eventho it is not emphasized, players only have more freedom in building their character either to heal, dps or tank
wakfu have that 3 pillar, yea the class in wakfu is indeed interesting
WHM and SCH have a lot of differences, the way to play it is different, in the end they heal becoz that is their purpose, no other way around

it would be nice if they add pure support into this game, providing more interesting approach in instances,
even if pure support is added, after providing status to mobs and buff to pt member, they still need to dps
in the end all will be the same

I'd love a pure support class. I think they would need 'stances' though, otherwise they would be useless in 4 man content. Where they can main heal or put up the same damage as another DPS, while when they switch over that shoots down to minimal and all their buffs / debuffs start working.

I would like more variety too. We have face tanking, Movable DPS, not so movable DPS, and rather immobile heals that aren't really any different. Multiple viable 'builds' for each job would be even better. It should really come from a combination of both off skills and gear.

I wouldn't separate Ranged and Magic DPS. Its more Casters and those that have total freedom of movement for playstyles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yashnaheen

I'd love a pure support class. I think they would need 'stances' though, otherwise they would be useless in 4 man content. Where they can main heal or put up the same damage as another DPS, while when they switch over that shoots down to minimal and all their buffs / debuffs start working.

I would like more variety too. We have face tanking, Movable DPS, not so movable DPS, and rather immobile heals that aren't really any different. Multiple viable 'builds' for each job would be even better. It should really come from a combination of both off skills and gear.

I wouldn't separate Ranged and Magic DPS. Its more Casters and those that have total freedom of movement for playstyles.

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You nailed it. There are two things that confine the possible play experiences right now, first four player content with three roles for duty finder, and second, no pure support role.

I guess pure support would get added to the DPS role, but that's already crowded. And the current model doesn't allow for; lets call them class/job synergies. For example, what if DRG could be a capable tank when combined the right support class? What if a MNK could be viable as tank with the right Healer? Suddenly, not too much of a shortage for the tank role, and DPS isn't half as crowded in Duty Finder.

And yes, the follow up question is what if you take that support job or healer and combine it with a true tank? Then that healer/support becomes more responsible for contributing to DPS (by either buffs or direct damage), because now they'd have a system of changing synergies depending on the party composition.

They can very easily make hybrid Jobs that have the option of queueing up as 'tank' or 'dps, etc... implementation-wise, from a coding standpoint, it wouldn't be very difficult or time-consuming whatsoever.

I dislike the design of the jobs in general now tbh. At least in 1.23 they had a stronger sense of identity. For example, WAR could easily switch between being a Tank or a DPS depending on how you geared it and set up your cross-class skills. Now it's basically the same as PLD but with more HP and less damage mitigation. DRG placed a heavy emphasis on critical hits, BLM was all about exploiting elemental weaknesses and choosing the right magic for the job (as opposed to just cycling back and forth between ice and fire as fast as possible) and even BRD felt genuinely more useful as it could back up heal and songs, while limited in variety were at least potent and could be stacked.

The removal/nerfing of the SP skills was pretty lame as well. No more mighty strikes or hundred fists. Benediction is single target now instead of party. Hallowed Ground only lasts 10 vs 15 seconds. I honestly can't remember if BLM had manafont or not in 1.23, I don't think it did, but I do miss having an elemental wheel and thunder spells being big, critical hits vs DoT (ice was CC and fire was AoE). Heck even WHM could dps decently vs mobs that were weak to water, earth or wind.


Now they all just feel rather generic, almost forced really since YP kept Tanaka & Komot's design but tweaked it to be more "modern". WHM losing the ability to AoE stoneskin and regen pulling hate per tic is annoying as hell. But then even that pales in comparison to what it could do in XI - there's no divine veil, barspells to block status ailments and elemental damage, no phalanx (granted that was a RDM and eventually PLD spell but WHM did eventually get access to it via raised caps and subbing RDM. however SCH was more or less the preferred SJ). We don't even have any funky utility spells like sneak and invis, or tractor to pull in dead bodies which granted, was largely useless but would be nice in this game for stuff like Titan to pull people back up onto the platform, or out of plumes so they don't get raised into death.

Nevermind that more complex jobs like Blue Mage, Puppetmaster and possibly Geomancer may not even work at all with the current system (PUP would only be workable if it was made from scratch - if they based it on PUG then I fear the abilities would be too limited). RDM is more or less screwed as well unless they either have a 2nd sword class or base it on GLA and give it nothing but spells for its quests but that's still kinda lame.

SMN & SCH are the two biggest offenders in my eyes though. I really, really, really just don't care for them. They both work in their intended roles, but they don't capture what they were as FF jobs either. Summoner really just feels like a confused RDM with deformed pets, and SCH is much the same. Why wasn't there more emphasis placed on the summons for SMN? If it's a pet class, why not have it center around controlling said pets and making the most out of them with a wide array of abilities? The job may have been grossly underpowered in XI but at least it captured the spirit of the job.

The same goes for SCH. Stratgems and switching between Light & Dark arts was tremendous fun in XI as you had access to a massive spell library but had to balance what was needed at the time and micro-manage your abilities far more than most other jobs. Not that they had to carbon copy the XI version for this, but it's generally been a RDM that forgoes the added combat ability and focuses purely on spells. Instead it's been pidgeonholed into a healer role with pets and a few DoTs.


Both are really hybrid jobs and shouldn't fall under the generic dps/healer/tank designation.

expansions could fix that,the reality is there is no reason to over-complicate a game when it first starts.

Take a look at XI for example, things like BLU, SMN, PUP, BST, DNC were not implemented til much much later on. You started off simply with basic class warrior, thief, rdm, blm, whm and monk.

Warrior auto attacks, provokes and uses WS when they can, rdm/blm/whm used spells, thief auto-attack and ws til they got a bit more variety at 15 with back attacks and then monk pretty much auto attack and ws.

Come the expansion, they have an opportunity to expand the "roles" and add more variety to the game without making the starting content harder to get into.

You can see it as, the content we started off with is for ease of access, to get into the game and lower the wait time, come the expansion maybe they'll add two roles, support and enfeeble, and add in jobs to allow DD roles to fit into those two roles if needed.

Then the dungeons and other end game content for those expansions would use those two roles as a way to increase the strategy of combat but of course it would be introduce in a way that wouldn't overwhelm new players just getting into the game. They could start off getting to know the basic roles, going through coil and CT and when they geared up enough they could move onto the expansion content and be given an expanded experience by being introduced to two new roles in party mechanics.