(Another) PLD/WAR comparaison

Im am sceptical about WARs being equivalent tanks to PLD.
If it were just a question of mitigating 20% of damage received versus healing yourself back 20% of the damage received, all would be well, however, to be able to gain HP back equivalent to the amount mitigated by PLD, the WAR would have to be dishing out incredible damage, which is not what we are seeing.

PALADIN:

Shield Oath: -20% DMG, all the time
Rampart: -20% DMG, 20s, 90s cooldown
Sentinel: -40% DMG, 10s, 180s cooldown
Bulwark: increases block rate by 60%, 10s, 180s cooldown
Hallowed Ground: Renders you immune to most attacks for 10s, 420s cooldown

WARRIOR:
Bloodbath: 25% of damage dealth to HP, 90s cooldown
Thrill of Battle: 20% heal and max hp increase for 10s, 120s cooldown
Inner Beast: 300 potency attack, absorb 300% of damage as HP
Storm's Path: 250 potency attack, absorb 50% of it as HP

So the PLD mostly has skills based off mitigating damage and the WAR, on absorbing HP from their attacks.

Considering amount of HPs are not that much of a consideration as long as tanks are decently geared, the +25% HP boost Defiance gives, feels lackluster, unless it is accompanied by a +20% bonus to healing received. If not, you might survive attacks, but healers, on the long run, will just run OOM trying to heal through the damage received unless you can heal yourself passively the 20% difference.

WAR does have a buff to heals received based on how much wrath they have accumulated, but considering they use up wrath for their attacks and heals, one can not consider that they would have the full 15% benefit for most of the fight. We might consider, on average that the warrior has around 3 points of Wrath on him throughout the fight, that's 9% to heals received.

So, a passive 20% damage reduction for PLD versus an average passive of +9% to heals received for WAR. there is a clear imbalance in the passives received. To fill that gap, warriors must use their cooldown abilities as well as spend their accumulated wrath. Consider that all this is to compensate for lack of Shield Oath, and is not taking into consideration that the PLD will ALSO be using his cooldowns.


So the question is: Can self-heals really compensate for the damage mitigation from all the paladin abilities?

Some things to consider:
1. Whereas PLD mitigates the damage directly, WARs need to try and heal the amount of extra damage received, which is based on their damage done. For example, for bloodbath to be equivalent to Rampart, the WAR would need to dish out damage equalling 4/5 of the damage the boss is doing to him, which is unrealistic by any stretch of the imagination.

2. A well-timed PLD cooldown can potentially block a large amount of damage from a big attack whereas a WARs self-heal will just heal him the same amount, which can only be boosted slightly via berserk/unchained, but never enough to equate the 20/40% reduction of a big attack.

3. Using inner beast, uses up our stacks of Wrath, and makes us lose our passive bonus to heals. it is practical and we use it, but its like taking a step back for every two steps forward.


The only way around this which does not include making Wars into PLD, would be to base our self heals on either damage received or, better yet, base the ammount healed on our max HP (plus a % of damage done). make those big HP pools mean something.

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Originally Posted by Shinraijin

The only way around this which does not include making Wars into PLD, would be to base our self heals on either damage received or, better yet, base the ammount healed on our max HP (plus a % of damage done). make those big HP pools mean something.

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Basing it on damage received would work. Basing it on max HP would not; the number would still be flat and would not scale with content. There is no "big HP pool", either; WAR and PLD currently have identical eHP pools (which is bad due to the difference in mitigation timing).

I disagree about turning WAR into PLD, per se. Boosting passive mitigation (as long as it is placed post-damage) would not make WAR like PLD. That would be like saying WAR has to disrobe, because PLD is the passive mitigation tank and armor is also passive mitigation. WAR would still focus on health drain as burst mitigation. Right now, WAR has drain as burst mitigation and continuous mitigation scheme that is both reduced by burst mitigation and inexplicably gimped.

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Originally Posted by Shinraijin

The only way around this which does not include making Wars into PLD, would be to base our self heals on either damage received or, better yet, base the ammount healed on our max HP (plus a % of damage done). make those big HP pools mean something.

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It's fun how it reminds me of WoW's Death Knights, who coincidentally also are this game's two-handed weapon tanks. Their active mitigation is based on a skill that deals damage and heals them equal to a percent of the damage they received in the last few seconds, or a relatively small percent of their HP, whichever is greater. The difference is that it also puts a damage absorbing shield on them, which only absorbs physical damage and whose amount is proportional to the heal, which helps mitigating damage before it comes.

It works quite well, and actually encourages them to stack HP (and the stat that makes the shield bigger, which has no equivalent in ARR).

http://www.smitefire.com/smite/skill...ate-wounds-140
A skill like this would be nice (on Unchained or Holmgang).

IMO they goofed slightly, WAR being superior for self-sustain with PLD being superior for Burst, however I don't think WAR's proficiency in self-sustain is really on the level it should be which is why it falters a bit.
I think the static mitigation thing is overexaggerated. A lot of pressure is put on IB for sustainability , but it's an anti-burst tool.
Last I recall the math was done and holding on to wrath heals you more health in the long run than using IB. However Wrath doesn't mean anything if you are dead, so if you get bursted, it's better to blow the IB anyways so you don't die. PLD is better against burst in this respect that he handles spike damage better. Rampart increases effective healing 1.25% itself doesn't it? So not only he takes less damage when it pops healing is worth more on him for the duration he doesn't drop his normal healing when bursted, he technically increases it.
For this, WAR should be healing a ton when he's not being bursted or having to kite.

Bloodbath, and Storm Path are sustain (then there is cross class stuff) but to be honest those two don't really heal for much when you get them. Truth be told Bloodbath felt fairly insignificant all the way back to Satasha...because to an extent it kind of is, let alone later on (but more reliable than Storm path). Storm Path sucks from day 1, and doesn't really seem to be intune with the reality of incoming damage. I don't hold these as matters of Static vs Dynamic.
Storm path will heal a WAR 2% of his HP when he first gets it, and drops to something like 1%/1.4% once you have 8000 hp or so? It sucks from day 1, a ~0.6% decrease in something that took 7.5s means the skill is terrible. Even on shoot I think cutters cry when you can first use it in a dungeon it was something like 12% of a bosses auto attack? If it's mitigation is 12% of a bosses auto attack vs Rampart that is 20% of that auto attack and any other damage, even if it was dynamic and *always* 12% of an autoattack it would still suck.

One thing people don't take in consideration is that while being attack by multiple enemies a PLD still has a 20% damage reduction from each and all attacks/attackers. A WAR's selfhealing ability is the same when facing one or multiple enemies.

One way to counter it is to increase the amount of health absorbed by the number of attackers surrounding the War.

Mercy stroke is a power that is unreliable. It has a great heal, but most often then not you will use it and the enemy will survive only to die with the next hit or you wait a bit longer and it won't go off in time. Either increase the damage of the ability or give it a "if the enemy dies within 3 seconds of use".

I still think defiance should have a constant selfheal component based on the numbers of enemies around you, with diminishing returns after x amount of enemies.

Also, I'd like to see an ability that heals you for x amount of the damage received over the last x seconds.

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Originally Posted by Naelin

The difference is that it also puts a damage absorbing shield on them, which only absorbs physical damage and whose amount is proportional to the heal, which helps mitigating damage before it comes.

It works quite well, and actually encourages them to stack HP (and the stat that makes the shield bigger, which has no equivalent in ARR).

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Yeah, ARR lacks the equivalent of DK's mastery stat to increase the shield. Shield potency could be tied to something like weapon damage but that would make weapon the primary upgrade for WARs. If you tie it to a primary stat like VIT or STR you just turned that stat into WAR's main priority for gearing (though you might be able to keep this on a leash depending on how well said primary stat affects the shield).

Judging from your explanation, it seems that theoretically Warriors would be able to be better than/on par with Paladins in the long-run. If their gear provided a higher amount of damage while still having a huge HP pool, then they could get back more HP than the fixed damage mitigation of Paladins, no?

we just about wiped in CM on 3rd boss because the warrior wanted to main tank . Ended up tanking boss with my paladin after warrior died and half the raid .

I died in ifrit HM on my warrior , I almost die everytime , but with my paladin I am god mode as tank in ifrit HM.

Also in 4 man dungeons I can stun multiple mobs to potentially save from wipe when something goes wrong . Cant do that on warrior , 1 stun that's it .

This comparing will need to be redone after 2.1 as there will be changes to warriors stunning abilities, it was also mentioned that warriors squishyness will be adressed. It does seem they will make warriors on par so its now a wait and see. Regardless it is good news.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

we just about wiped in CM on 3rd boss because the warrior wanted to main tank . Ended up tanking boss with my paladin after warrior died and half the raid .

I died in ifrit HM on my warrior , I almost die everytime , but with my paladin I am god mode as tank in ifrit HM.

Also in 4 man dungeons I can stun multiple mobs to potentially save from wipe when something goes wrong . Cant do that on warrior , 1 stun that's it .

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That's your fault. Yoshi says WAR is fine they made PLD a bit too strong but they'll buff WAR anyways. If you dieing every time then you got to elevate yourself.