As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

uhh if someone who built something and explained his intentions behind it - u can't say its untrue or have no relevance for an argumentation. o.o

you are absolutely right if the devs are unhappy with the current status of cleric they should change it – Yoshi is a bit hypocritical if he said he dislike the way cleric evolved but that they won't change it with SB cause of whatever reasons. it's se fault sure. after all it wasn't intended to be like this although the time showed us that it make sense to do so. I really like Kokos statement cause she is one of the less who's really dispassionate about the whole discussion. and don't count me on the "im against healer-dps" thing - cause im not. - I just said I can understand people who think so, cause I can follow their arguments - which at least for me make sense.

that being said, u and the other should be aware that Fey and I also dps on healer cls, what both of us said several times yet. like I said it's just the way people say "u have to no matter what" which freaks me (dunno about fey though) out.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Once again, this is a perfect example of what I was describing, that you and some other people are viewing this as a valid basis for the discussion. While others, like myself, are not, because I don't care how the game is described to work, I only care how it actually works. It's like in FFXI, when the developers designed Ninja as a DPS job, and it ended up being a tank - because that's how it worked the most effectively. The developers could talk as much as they wanted about how it was supposed to be a DPS job, but in the actual game it was played as a tank.

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and once again (u seem to like this phrase) - you are free to do so if its your understanding of the game but you can't force others to follow you on this. -> "can" and "must" -> u should see my intention why im still disagreeing, do u?

You can cooperate with a parties wants and needs, but you must if you want them to cooperate back.

...this is purely another story... you are mixing up things here.

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Originally Posted by Neela

...this is purely another story... you are mixing up things here.

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You are saying can and must are the division. However is everyone who wants people to dps really the people who represent the MUST mentality? That we are the oppressors? We are denying freedoms? Maybe. However i can easily say the whole of the party MUST let a person choose to do heal only playstyle, but then does that not oppresses and robs the freedom of the rest of the party?

Don't really think any single group whether it's pro dps or pro heal only fall into either category, since you can easily argue that each side is having a choice robbed from them. You must abide by my individual playstyle even though the rest of the party doesn't want it. You must abide by the party wants and demands even if you don't individually don't want to dps. It can go either way...it's too subjective.

What determines how important the individual need is? Are you more important because you are in the minority of thought in a party, does each individual in the party should have less say and less importance because they are in the majority that each of their wants is nowhere near as individually important as the person who stands alone?

Ultimately i prescribe that we settle things with majority vote rather than see things as with a can and must mentality. Each party decides what is best, not individuals identities of us vs them or me vs the world. Just do what's most efficient, do what's practical.Parties are hard to formulate, you waste a lot of time planning and strategizing its best to go with the path of least resistance since we only have so much time to play.

hmm... no actually not. right know talking to Taika belongs to those "2 sides" argument and he/shes right there are two grps with different interpretations of how to play or focus on a healer cls. the point im disagreeing with is that one side should respect the other side but vise versa they call out "lazy noob".

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Originally Posted by Neela

hmm... no actually not. right know talking to Taika belongs to those "2 sides" argument and he/shes right there are two grps with different interpretations of how to play or focus on a healer cls. the point im disagreeing with is that one side should respect the other side but vise versa they call out "lazy noob".

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Respect is earned, you have prove your positions is worthy of respect to have it be respected. To just simply have respect for no reason other than "you should" has no value, maybe you are refering to common courtesy to not act like a total asshat towards someone else?Then i can agree, but that still doesn't justify the position that we should be accepting of subpar effort from a party member. No one who doesn't at least attempt to play their jobs to their fullest potential doesn't have any respect from me.Ill be nice to them, but i won't respect their position. Respect isn't a right, or something that you should give people, it's something that is earned... just that you can't force someone to love you, you also can't force someone to respect you.

If i were to take taika's arguments into consideration, which i am not in my previous posts, which seems to me why you think i am confused or wrong. I think would agree with her/him when they say that how players play the game is always far more important than what the developer intended. Since it's what matters most to developers when they implement future changes or no changes to the system.

But ultimately i was challenging your perception of can and must was a valid way of looking at things.However you tried to make the argument that because you were discussing what the developers said or w/e that i didn't understand your argument, when i don't think you were realizing i was challenging your preconceptions of how you view things when it comes to this entire thread of how people were divided on the issue.

You try to make a moral argument that people "Should" respect each other, but that doesn't add value to respect it devalues it. In fact it can be harmful if everyone is just "respected" as a default.Then even positions that should not even be respected...like the heal only play style for example...would receive legitimization in the eyes of others when it deserves none. Also respect is usually reserved for people who achieve great accolades or results that greatly benefit people, to have it be something you give out like candy is something that GRIEVOUSLY devalues respect as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Neela

the point im disagreeing with is that one side should respect the other side but vise versa they call out "lazy noob".

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Respect is earned

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I slightly disagree that respect is earned, no matter how people play in content you should respect them. However, bad attitude is a very quick way to lose respect, and on the internet, lack of respect leads to you being called a "lazy noob" (it's the internet, theres not much that can be said other than suck it up). The bad attitude in play here is the refusal to communicate. If someone expects you to DPS, then you do your best, if you struggle, then say "sorry, I struggle with healing and DPS right now, and I'd rather focus on keeping the party alive", see how that sounds much better than "I'm not a DPS". Be the better person if you don't want to DPS, don't act hostile when someone wants you to play differently, because your playstyle is the one in question, and you are the one that needs to defend yourself. You are right that respect goes both ways, so why don't you start by setting the bar where you want it.

Oh and if they give advice, please listen to it even if you don't use it, I have found that players are generally helpful if you let them be. How many mentors have said "they just stay silent while spamming 1-2-3, and ignore everything I say"? Right now, I could pick out people in this thread who that logic applies to.

If that doesn't work and you get kicked, then you are justified in thinking they are an asshole.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

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fair enough than - yeah maybe respect is the wrong term but you got what I meant. Yesterday I was light farming on whm got a grp with 3 tanks (1 Pala 2 Wars) - gotta solo cleric-heal np used to it. but I'll get mad at Faust if im solo healing in a grp with 3 tanks and no-one takes the adds. one of the wars asked me why I went off cleric at 40%... my answer: "cause either you nor the other 2 tanks have grabbed the 4 adds off my ass?!" - so yeah I really get pissed if the com expect me to dps while solo healing – but 3 tanks are to cool or don't care to cover my ass? I have to cover you and try to fulfill your extra dps-desire but you give a fuck about me... what kind of mindset is that?...

edit: yeah Lamb absolutly true - its not related to this com but to coms in general : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

hmm... no actually not. right know talking to Taika belongs to those "2 sides" argument and he/shes right there are two grps with different interpretations of how to play or focus on a healer cls. the point im disagreeing with is that one side should respect the other side but vise versa they call out "lazy noob".

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It's only the "Heal only" Healers that carry the title of Lazy.
We are almost to the 3rd expansion of the game and with how damage has been tuned this whole time, there isn't really a reason to have that mentality outside of being stubborn.

At this point in the game there shouldn't be two opposing sides of the argument, only different skill levels of being able to heal and DPS.