The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They may have intended to, but Yoshi admitted that the DPS checks are too stringent for item levels alone to be enough, which suggests they mistuned the content.



Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Moving-Forward

If item levels aren't going to be enough for them, that means DPS from additional sources is necessary; i.e., healer and tank DPS.

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However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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My point was that they screwed up. Yoshi-P admitted that they overtuned them, which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage. That includes both STR-tank DPS (since they presumably balance around Fending accessories) and Healer DPS.

It's important to remember that Yoshi is not on the battle content design team: he oversees that team as producer, but the actual design and tuning of the content falls to other people. So when he states the general design philosophy, it's still entirely possible for the team to make mistakes that run counter to that philosophy, which seems to have happened with Savage.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They may have intended to, but Yoshi admitted that the DPS checks are too stringent for item levels alone to be enough, which suggests they mistuned the content.



Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Moving-Forward

If item levels aren't going to be enough for them, that means DPS from additional sources is necessary; i.e., healer and tank DPS.

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I see.
Now I'm really curious how they calculated the DPS needed when they made it in the first place.

All I see is crying, almost all of you want rewards without any work. Relic is too much grind, raiding is too hard. And you will get what you ask for, because of all the crying. But what it does for humanity and for you as a person, is it teaches you that you don't have to work hard to achieve something. You become lazy and spoiled. So thank god and SE that they made these difficult encounters and wanted people to work harder, communicate more, learn their class more, plan and prepare more, they were teaching players that they have to fight in order to win. But now the next tier will be easier because of all the cries so you achieved what you wanted. Enjoy your victory.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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Not sure if you've been paying attention to all the posts around the one you quoted or not. But the statement Yoshi made is not only linked, but quoted in full. Also the statement entirely modifies the bit you have cherry picked to say. It vastly changes it.

^ This is so true, im sick and tired of people who want everything without working for it. It seems like everything in this game is welfare.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I see.
Now I'm really curious how they calculated the DPS needed when they made it in the first place.

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I will use A3S as an example since so few have cleared it.

Using FFLogs as a reference for maximum class potential - it appears that they calculated A3S as a minimum ilvl of 203-205 without including healer DPS.

~ Max potential minus Healer DPS at at rate of 88% for gear.

This is with classes pushing their max potential, lining up buffs, pot usage, and Tank in DPS stance using as much DPS gear to meet HP limits. This will still just barely meet a win during Enrage cast.

- Without Tanks optimizing for as much DPS as possible I'd suspect that A3S was geared towards i206 at maximum play. Which is basically getting as much gear as you can get without beating A3S and still just barely meeting Enrage.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

My point was that they screwed up. Yoshi-P admitted that they overtuned them, which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage.

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Just to give a little view:

We are a little 2 evenings a week group. We finished the coils before next tier. We finished A1S and A2S within the first 6 weeks.

Currently we are still working towards to finish A3S. DPS wise: A1S we finish around the second jump. A2S we are also finishing a good time before the enrage gets close. Gear wise there is not much more we can get better. But when I look into the A3S 7 man videos, our DPS players are around 30% behind their DPS players.

Do you really think ist about "sources of DPS they don't normally consider"?

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just to give a little view:

We are a little 2 evenings a week group. We finished the coils before next tier. We finished A1S and A2S within the first 6 weeks.

Currently we are still working towards to finish A3S. DPS wise: A1S we finish around the second jump. A2S we are also finishing a good time before the enrage gets close. Gear wise there is not much more we can get better. But when I look into the A3S 7 man videos, our DPS players are around 30% behind their DPS players.

Do you really think ist about "sources of DPS they don't normally consider"?

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Her statement directly says that it was overtuned. So that answers your last question. Also, it has been cleared with the gear currently available, so I'm not sure what "just to give you a little view..." from a struggling team adds.

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Originally Posted by Mizaeron

All I see is crying, almost all of you want rewards without any work. Relic is too much grind, raiding is too hard. And you will get what you ask for, because of all the crying. But what it does for humanity and for you as a person, is it teaches you that you don't have to work hard to achieve something. You become lazy and spoiled. So thank god and SE that they made these difficult encounters and wanted people to work harder, communicate more, learn their class more, plan and prepare more, they were teaching players that they have to fight in order to win. But now the next tier will be easier because of all the cries so you achieved what you wanted. Enjoy your victory.

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I feel that you are failing to capture the reasoning behind the people you are complaining about. For example, with the Relic, no one is asking for this to be handed over. They are simply complaining that the tasks for doing so, the quest design, and the overall implementation felt lazy, uninspired and uninteresting.

With balancing, sometimes things are just too difficult for a player, and it has little to do with them trying and more to do with them not being as skilled at that task as someone else. That, I believe, is the case with Savage. It was tuned too hard, but that doesn't mean people want it to be easy content.


Out of curiosity, why are we talking about Savage in this healer DPS discussion? Anyone who is doing Savage in a static has healers who DPS, that isn't really the question up for debate. I thought it was people found in Duty Finder - so places like Void Ark, RavEX, Expert Roulette etc?