Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

You want to know the funniest thing about this seemingly endless philosophical debate between Lurina vs. Eara (Who will win? Place your bets now!)

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I don't think it's about winning. Pretty sure it's about occupying the mind wholeheartedly to pass the time.

That said, my gil's on Lurina. I think Lurina makes a better argument, and I definitely agree with the idea that Endwalker proselytizes. I'd even say that it just assumes after a certain part of the story that the WoL converted more or less.

Meteion's report just points out the transient nature of all things ('Mono no aware', if you will). That's not only true of the Plenty but our own civilization as well. No civilization is exempt from it, regardless of how 'ideal' that society is.

It's simply a portrayal of how different people in different circumstances grapple with that concept.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Meteion's report just points out the transient nature of all things ('Mono no aware', if you will). That's not only true of the Plenty but our own civilization as well. No civilization is exempt from it, regardless of how 'ideal' that society is.

It's simply a portrayal of how different people in different circumstances grapple with that concept.

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In other words, conflating a 'Dead End' with some kind of failure state, or a reflection of some fundamental or reductive 'fault' to be contrasted to us, is silly and probably mean-spirited. Etheirys as it exists now (and Earth, for that matter) is every bit as much as a fated 'Dead End' as any of the other worlds we saw. We just haven't gotten there yet.

If it's a matter of 'but the question is what you do once you understand that, you can't just give up and die,' then the Ancients are never demonstrated to qualify except in pure speculative hypothetical. We opposed them because, if anything, they were so determined to continue living and grasping their future, as depicted in Shadowbringers (and arguably Endwalker, though obviously the framing was very different there for the purposes of the story defending Hydaelyn's decision to annihilate them.)

The Amaurotine civilization ended twelve thousand years ago. It's not a 'failure state', it just is. We opposed Emet's plan to slaughter seven worlds in the name of resurrecting his ghost town because we wanted to keep living. Our civilization will end someday too. But today is not that day.

I just don't see why anyone would take the Amaurotines' claims of being 'superior beings' at face value, though. It's a bit like reading Ozymandias, completely missing the point, failing to predict the obvious outcome, and then calling Shelley a bad writer over it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I just don't see why anyone would take the Amaurotines' claims of being 'superior beings' at face value, though. It's a bit like reading Ozymandias, completely missing the point, failing to predict the obvious outcome, and then calling Shelley a bad writer over it.

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I'm not sure who's doing this at present or why this was brought up, or why this is being correlated to 'Amaurotines' rather than 'Emet-Selch as a deeply traumatized and isolated individual running on unhealthy, dishonest coping mechanisms, which is in fact his true moral indictment within Shadowbringers rather than anything he's actually doing or feeling for his people,' but okay. I appreciate the acknowledgment that Amaurot and the Ancients should not be considered a 'failure state' and our opposition to them came down to the simple fact of 'we want to live.' They were humans who, in their time, had the same right to live and receive compassion, help, and respect, as we do.

Grasping for the insanity plea doesn't make Emet's actions less reprehensible. I have no problem enjoying his character.

The other Ascians referred to us as 'inferior' races as well. Mitron even goes on an entire rant on the subject. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Fact: "A society that believes it attained perfection cannot be improved or changed as it is "perfect".
Assumption: All people experience ennui and extreme discontent without novel experiences.

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Ok here is where we disagree then. I hold it as self evident fact that without novel experiences all people will experience ennui and discontent. The only variable that changes this is time. If we can't agree on this then we obviously won't agree on whether Endwalker is making a well founded argument or not.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

In this case (though the Ea stuff also does something similar) Endwalker takes it as an indisputable truth of reality that all people experience ennui to the point it can make them profoundly miserable. But this isn't so. Ennui is a subjective emotional experience that is reported extremely differently between individuals; the assertion is at best a guess, and at worse, completely false.

A big problem with how Endwalker argues is, like I mentioned briefly earlier, its absolutism. While the inference>thesis leap is essentially the same in both Endwalker and The Good Place, The Good Place merely argues that some people will experience terminal boredom in its anti-hedonism argument, while Endwalker - in trying to indirectly defend Hydaelyn for the Sundering, and its more extreme viewpoint generally - is forced to assert that people will eventually arrive at that state as a matter of general truth, and in doing so, makes that fact>inference assumption.

While The Good Place doesn't have to do that, because the idea that just some people experience extreme ennui is observably true.

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I'm very glad we've included the Good Place in this discussion, and you've specifically used it as a contrasting example to Endwalker, because it actually doesn't support your position on this. Ennui in the Good Place is inevitable, universal and absolute. All the major characters immediately agree that boredom is the core problem with the actual "good place," with our main insight into heaven immediately stating that "when perfection goes on forever, you become this glassy eyed mush person." The characters then immediately worry they'll become like the everyone else, and look to find a solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23IHH2E38Ec

Now perhaps I'm missing where they suggest this is only a thing some of the denizens experience, but to me the show makes the exact same leap you're criticizing Endwalker for. And their solution is Ra-La in door form! I don't see how this is anyway less absolute than what Endwalker is saying with the Plenty.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Ok here is where we disagree then. I hold it as self evident fact that without novel experiences all people will experience ennui and discontent. The only variable that changes this is time. If we can't agree on this then we obviously won't agree on whether Endwalker is making a well founded argument or not.

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Yeah, I’m going to jump in here - less for the purposes of arguing, per se, and more to offer a different perspective - pulling slightly on the ‘speaking as a neurodivergent person’ card here, I absolutely cannot agree this is a “self-evident fact.” To be perfectly honest, trying to imagine the life experiences and perspective of someone so utterly confident in this idea that they would affirm it in such absolute terms as “self-evident fact” is basically impossible for me to wrap my head around.

It ties into the unease I feel when I see arguments being made, whether intentional or not, that the Ancients or anyone else simply had an inherently “wrong” form of being born and simply existing that provides justification for their annihilation as a race, or to otherwise be forcibly “fixed” according to the beliefs of someone else without consent.

Hm.

So in other words, you're saying that you have a major problem with what Emet and the Ascians were trying to do to us.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact! A hypothetically consensual Rejoining or Sundering, okay! Non-consensual and violently forced, Not Okay, and correct to oppose in both cases! I’m glad we have also successfully cleared up this nonsequitur too!