The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Players crushed spirits also. I'm sure you seen all the complaints about how easy it was to clear Coil and such early on after release. I never attempted A3S, but based on the reactions, it's what players asked for: difficult-to-beat content.

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Yea there were complaints about coil being too easy, but a lot of those were from also players who had never stepped foot into coil. They were using the fact that the world first cleared so fast as a way to insult raiders with lines like "Coil was easy, it was cleared in a week." Obviously, it was not easy as there were enough complaints about its difficulty to put in a story mode version which end up being too easy to act as a stepping stone into savage.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Players crushed spirits also. I'm sure you seen all the complaints about how easy it was to clear Coil and such early on after release. I never attempted A3S, but based on the reactions, it's what players asked for: difficult-to-beat content.

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Yeah, by the world-first players, who make up the lowest percentage of raiders, and of the whole playerbase, in this game. "Easy" is not the word I'd use, however. These were people who had to pentameld armor and accessories, as well as some raid groups having everyone in the party use Potent Poisoning Potions just to reach the DPS checks. With that said, FCoB was easier than SCoB, so bringing Alexander Savage Midas to the level of SCoB is more palatable to the entire raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Tint

at least all the healers here care to achieve that lvl of player skill. but now they have to nerf alex savage? how is that even possible? the healer dps were not even calculatet into the dmg checks D:

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If all of the healers in here cared to achieve that level of skill this debate about healer DPS wouldn't be a thing. Healers who can DPS well on top of keeping their group alive are the players who clear Alexander Savage. This is a fact.

Cure/Benefic/Physic spamming healers can maybe survive through A2 with their team heavily carrying them.

Healer DPS was definitely considered. It's still almost impossible at i208 to clear A3S without some DPS from healers unless your DPS/Tanks are near Lucrezia/Elysium level.

For perspective on how impossible that fight is without healers DPS:

Group DPS output needs to average about 7675 DPS for the entire fight, because 112.5/660 seconds of the fight involves an invulnerable boss. Assuming your tanks are average 1700 DPS together, that leaves the DPS needing to average 1495 each.

The highest recorded DPS in that fight is a BLM sitting at 1489 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tint

at least all the healers here care to achieve that lvl of player skill. but now they have to nerf alex savage? how is that even possible? the healer dps were not even calculatet into the dmg checks D:

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not calculated for the appropriate iLvl.
if undergeared, you'll need healer DPS.
Although what the appropriate ilvl for A3S is, I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by hagare

not calculated for the appropriate iLvl.
if undergeared, you'll need healer DPS.
Although what the appropriate ilvl for A3S is, I have no idea.

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You could be a mix of 200 and 210 for A3s and still be a bit shy to the DPS check if the healers were not to contribute at all.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You could be a mix of 200 and 210 for A3s and still be a bit shy to the DPS check if the healers were not to contribute at all.

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I think his point was that we were unaware of most of the variables in the formula they used to determine dps checks, things like:
1. What they considered appropriate ilvls. (all they said is was some number above minimum, but not if it varied by instance or anything)
2. What rotations they used to calculate player damage.
3. If Pots or Food was included
4. If rotations in calculation were perfect or left room for human error.
5. If Str or Vit gear was used on tanks.
6. etc.

Them telling us their method really opened up a lot more questions.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

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A lot of those points seem to be severely underestimating what the players know and can acutally do (if past experiecnes is anything to go by in regards to ninja, and yoshi-p's perspective on players not knowing how to play 2.0 warrior). I digress though, the dps checks are incredibly strict, if not unmeetable even if you were to go in there with gear that didn't drop from A3s (meaning you'd have eso weapons and i210 on acessories, belt, shoes and gloves). Like I said though, this is assuming absolutely no healer dps, and that they had intended for tanks to wear vitality (since they can't even roll need on str accessories)

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

For perspective on how impossible that fight is without healers DPS:

Group DPS output needs to average about 7675 DPS for the entire fight, because 112.5/660 seconds of the fight involves an invulnerable boss. Assuming your tanks are average 1700 DPS together, that leaves the DPS needing to average 1495 each.

The highest recorded DPS in that fight is a BLM sitting at 1489 DPS.

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The boss drains his own hp during add phase... For all intent and purposes, the only period in which you are not attacking amounts to about 20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You could be a mix of 200 and 210 for A3s and still be a bit shy to the DPS check if the healers were not to contribute at all.

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Like I said, we have no idea what the hard number they use when they set up the raid is, so throwing out numbers now is meaningless.
What I can say with 100% certainty, is that at the appropriate ilvl, healer DPS is not needed to clear the raid.
Because that is what was said in the interview.

I think they add in the total DPS of DPS + Tanks, then they take off about 10-15%(don't remember the exact number from the interview) to get the required DPS to clear the raid. 10-15% reduction so you would have some extra wiggle room and margin of error.