Scholar 5.0 Discussion

So scholar is the only healing class that don't have a Reduces spell cast time and recast time

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Energy drain is nice, but I'm hoping for more changes in future patches. Energy drain alone doesnt fix all the problems I have with scholar, but it's a start I suppose.

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I'm pleasently surprised we got ED back in it's orginal form. For the rest I'm currently wanting to believe they didn't have time to add in the "SCH" parameter as eligble job for the rest of Virus, Miasma1&2, Bio 1&2, Bane, Shadowflare, E4E, Selene, AF out of combat and restore manual fairy control.

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Originally Posted by supermad

So scholar is the only healing class that don't have a Reduces spell cast time and recast time

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We kinda don't need one though? A lot of our casts are instant and if you have to resort to the long cast spells something /very/ wrong is happening.

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

I'm pleasently surprised we got ED back in it's orginal form. For the rest I'm currently wanting to believe they didn't have time to add in the "SCH" parameter as eligble job for the rest of Virus, Miasma1&2, Bio 1&2, Bane, Shadowflare, E4E, Selene, AF out of combat and restore manual fairy control.

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I'm hoping we get at least some of that back in 5.1, and that we didnt get them back immediately because they didnt want to change the class too much as soon as savage dropped.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I'm hoping we get at least some of that back in 5.1, and that we didnt get them back immediately because they didnt want to change the class too much as soon as savage dropped.

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Look at Monk.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I'm hoping we get at least some of that back in 5.1, and that we didnt get them back immediately because they didnt want to change the class too much as soon as savage dropped.

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Might be they were happy with SCH for upcoming Savage, so the hope I'm riding on is that they will adress on how the job plays in rest of the game's content during the Live Letter for the next round of adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Look at Monk.

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It doesn't seem much different to me, tbh, just looked like some QoL changes for them this patch, then again, I dont know nearly enough about the class to make that claim.

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Originally Posted by supermad

So scholar is the only healing class that don't have a Reduces spell cast time and recast time

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Well our Succor got reduced to 2 second cast from 2.5. Not sure what you may mean though.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

It doesn't seem much different to me, tbh, just looked like some QoL changes for them this patch, then again, I dont know nearly enough about the class to make that claim.

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it changes a lot because of the form shift .. that allows monks to keep their stacks.

and RoF that doesn't lower SKS anymore. and RoE giving a true north buff ... so yeah monks have a lot of good changes .. but form shift is the biggest.

which makes u think why the TK and 6ss .. seem even more off now .. but it's not a monk topic

Very happy to see Energy Drain back! Now leave SCH alone please.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Very happy to see Energy Drain back! Now leave SCH alone please.

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Also happy that energy drain is back. Not going to be content until they give us back a second DoT (with Biolysis’s potency reduced so that damage remains the same), bane, a second full time fairy with distinct abilities, and preferably the ability to manually control embrace off the gcd.

Edit because daily post limit: the point of having 2 DoTs instead of one is the same as the point of having multiple buttons to press on a dps class. Having more things to manage is more interesting. Ideally I’d like two DoT’s with different durations so that keeping both active could be something to devote some attention to. And help our brains from atrophying between incoming damage.

As for people who can’t keep up one DoT as is... I hope this isn’t elitist, but I don’t mind someone who can remember to press a button every 15 seconds (or can keep an eye on the condition list for enemies) doing slightly more damage than someone who can’t. It raises the skill ceiling, and gives us all something more to work towards.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

Well our Succor got reduced to 2 second cast from 2.5. Not sure what you may mean though.

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Think they are referring to skills like lightspeed or presence of mind but... do we honestly need one at this point? We have oGCD skills galore and ruin 2 for movement.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Also happy that energy drain is back. Not going to be content until they give us back a second DoT (with Biolysis’s potency reduced so that damage remains the same), bane, a second full time fairy with distinct abilities, and preferably the ability to manually control embrace off the gcd.

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I don't see the point of giving 2 dots if it is to have same damage or lower for people who can't manage to keep both up.

and u actually want old SCH ....

Energy drain is back, great. Now I have less reasons to use Soil and really just dissipate for the extra DPS boost. I wish they would have fixed the other stuff first.
Fairy is still eating skills without using them.
Consolation and Blessing can't be used at the same time, button bloat. Please, it's such a simple fix. Seraph can't even utilize fairy gauge, a problem in itself. Embrace still heals for less than 5% of Tanks HP. When people walk out of Fey union range, instead of stopping the union and moving closer to the target, fairy continues to do absolutely nothing. Doesn't even stop Union or anything, doesn't embrace, doesn't do anything until you use another fairy skill or command her to stop union. Can't even place her when she does that. Blessing is still a 1 min CD with 10 gauge cost. Fey Illumination doesn't affect CD's nor any of the fairy heals as the fairy is no longer targetable and thus, can not receive buffs. Fey Illumination does not affect like what, 80% of our healing toolkit? But hey 5% magic defense I guess????? All this combined just makes SCH with the already heavily dumbed down DPS "rotation" feel super clunky and with the current state of healing, you'll want to use all 3 stacks on Energy drain rather than any healing. Obviously you wont do that but it will feel terrible using Aetherflow on healing rather than DPS. Also could've made Broil a 2 second cast so it wouldn't feel terrible clipping my DPS GCD's with healing CD's AS A HEALER. Why do I have to feel like healing punishes good healer play.

Dont get me wrong, I'm happy ED is back. But at the same time I can't be happy with how clunky SCH fairy STILL is and how terribly they handled the healing role in general.

ED back is literally the only thing I could ask for. While I can tell from the responses it's not the perfect fix. It at the very least brings back that priority system and ability to optimize on sch. Plus it's a stealth buff to Fey Union and Blessing in the sense you'll have reason to prioritize using them for healing.

Personally I want to see them focus more on fixing the pet interactivity at this point. Mb add a touch of potency to Ruin II to make it less punishing to single weave on and I'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

Well our Succor got reduced to 2 second cast from 2.5. Not sure what you may mean though.

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Not that I'm complaining but I don't remember anybody asking for this so not sure where it came from? But then again I don't remember anybody asking for ast and sch to get gutted. SE works in mysterious ways!

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

As for people who can’t keep up one DoT as is... I hope this isn’t elitist, but I don’t mind someone who can remember to press a button every 15 seconds (or can keep an eye on the condition list for enemies) doing slightly more damage than someone who can’t. It raises the skill ceiling, and gives us all something more to work towards.

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I would argue that if a person can't keep up a single dot, they don't have the situational awareness to have any business maining healer in the first place.

Though that's assuming they aren't some new level 15 player.

If I can give my quick feeling about Eden savage (cleared Thurdsay morning, EU time),
As SCH (with co-healer WHM), E1-E3 were easy. I didn't have to use Emergency Tactic at all, and began to use Fey Union since E3.
E4 is the real challenge and with the amount of oGCD I had, I felt in needed to use Ruin II a lot.
I think another DoT instant (like 50 potency tick for a duration of 18 sec) could have been nice.
My team didn't die a lot because of healing/mitigation issue, thanks to Deployment Tactic + Adlo, Recitation + Succor, Consolation x2, Sacred Soil and Fey Illumination.
I was feeling powerful.
Hopefully, Energy Drain was back. On my E4 clear, I used 22/40 of them.
No mana issue excepted a few times at the end of E4 (without optimization).

Now the improvements I would like to see :
- A new DoT with short duration allowing us to not loosing dps with the large amount of oGCD we have (and because SCH need more dps skills).
- Invoking Seraph should not interrupt Eos skills, so their effect should be instant and not applied at the end of the animation (it's too long).
- Consolation should be applied when Seraph is invoked.
- If Consolation is used (< 3sec) before Seraph disappears, it should be applied and not interrupted.

I will edit if I remember something else.

In the aftermath of 5.0 I've read several forum posts that the ACN/SCH split was necessary for problems the developers had with classes and especially SMN/SCH sharing a class. With them being a relic from 1.0 and balance issues. Does anyone know what kind of problems they have been facing?

Longing to understand the cuts and I'm curious to know as ever since 3.0 SMN and SCH have gotten different skills, traits and damage scaled of different stats. That they could re-add Miasma 2 in SB and ED now only eligble for "SCH" without a word further makes me ponder what issues they could have been facing. Think it necessary to know to further mull over how to make Scholar fun again in all walks of the game. Wondered if it could be legacy code pertaining to the pre-30 skills and both SMN and SCH have old ties there. Seeing as all new jobs since HW have started with pre-30 skills I would think they could just make a new SCH in the same template as the new jobs and re-add skills at the same levels ACN did.

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

In the aftermath of 5.0 I've read several forum posts that the ACN/SCH split was necessary for problems the developers had with classes and especially SMN/SCH sharing a class. With them being a relic from 1.0 and balance issues. Does anyone know what kind of problems they have been facing?

Longing to understand the cuts and I'm curious to know as ever since 3.0 SMN and SCH have gotten different skills, traits and damage scaled of different stats. That they could re-add Miasma 2 in SB and ED now only eligble for "SCH" without a word further makes me ponder what issues they could have been facing. Think it necessary to know to further mull over how to make Scholar fun again in all walks of the game. Wondered if it could be legacy code pertaining to the pre-30 skills and both SMN and SCH have old ties there. Seeing as all new jobs since HW have started with pre-30 skills I would think they could just make a new SCH in the same template as the new jobs and re-add skills at the same levels ACN did.

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The only issues I've heard of is the devs believed SCHs were too focused on dps and forcing their healing partners to pick up their slack in healing. Which A: is bull, in my experience, and on fflogs, SCHs were healing just as much, if not more, than their co-healer. B: even if that were a problem, this doesnt fix it, just because SCH has less dps abilities isnt going to stop SCH from using the few it has.

I would like to get our dps kit back and actually have an interesting rotation during downtime because in my opinion they failed in trying to get healers to heal only or a lot less. I’ve seen little to know difference so far in the amount of downtime I have to dps now than I used to before Shadowbringers. It also feels off putting when no matter how well I manage my cooldowns and dps between healing I can never achieve the damage being put out by the healer also healing slightly more than me. I don’t think or want Whm to be nerfed if possible but they can’t be the best at healing and damage. They either need to be put into one of the Niches or have the other healers brought up to match them respectively

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

The only issues I've heard of is the devs believed SCHs were too focused on dps and forcing their healing partners to pick up their slack in healing. Which A: is bull, in my experience, and on fflogs, SCHs were healing just as much, if not more, than their co-healer. B: even if that were a problem, this doesnt fix it, just because SCH has less dps abilities isnt going to stop SCH from using the few it has.

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I don’t know why they have such a hard time seeing Scholar as the support healer. Throw shields to help mitigate damage for the main healer, use ogcd’s to assist in healing when needed, have gcd heals for when things go bad, and give them their damage kit back to help assist with dps when not healing. They are clearly ok with Whm being able to throw out a lot of dps and big heals so it just doesn’t make sense. If their excuse is we don’t want to make scholar mandatory then they failed because now they have just made it Whm meta. Give Scholar their niche back and let the players decide what is important to them and their group. In my opinion it was never mandatory to play a scholar to beat content. It was a choice in case the dps elsewhere was lacking

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

The only issues I've heard of is the devs believed SCHs were too focused on dps and forcing their healing partners to pick up their slack in healing. Which A: is bull, in my experience, and on fflogs, SCHs were healing just as much, if not more, than their co-healer. B: even if that were a problem, this doesnt fix it, just because SCH has less dps abilities isnt going to stop SCH from using the few it has.

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if anything they made that situation more true with shb im consistantly healing less than my co healer now while still close im now lower instead of above

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

The only issues I've heard of is the devs believed SCHs were too focused on dps and forcing their healing partners to pick up their slack in healing. Which A: is bull, in my experience, and on fflogs, SCHs were healing just as much, if not more, than their co-healer. B: even if that were a problem, this doesnt fix it, just because SCH has less dps abilities isnt going to stop SCH from using the few it has.

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Yeah, the whole thing irks me. Like with pets aswell. Was it because of arcanist roots they had to strip the pet hotbar because it fit SMN.

What little I healed in Extremes and Savage before I never thought about leaving a raid-wide or patching up an unfortunate DPS to my co-healer. I would communicate so we could rotate our skills and decide what Eos could handle. I still wonder where they go to to get these impressions of the jobs on a whole.

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

I still wonder where they go to to get these impressions of the jobs on a whole.

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Know-nothing non-healers who had a bad experience with a tunneled or careless healer once, will never EVER forget it, and project that behavior onto all healers.

Just look at the live letter feedback to see who they care about. DPS players.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Know-nothing non-healers who had a balance experience with a tunneled or careless healer once, will never EVER forget it, and project that behavior onto all healers.

Just look at the live letter feedback to see who they care about. DPS players.

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Then to gain the favor of the developers Healers must become what we must: DPS players.

There was already a mentioned that the developers might feel they must adhere to the "Healer" archtype because the role is called Healer. Changing the name might let them ease on the definition and make scholar half healer and half arcanist/green mage.

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

Then to gain the favor of the developers Healers must become what we must: DPS players.

There was already a mentioned that the developers might feel they must adhere to the "Healer" archtype because the role is called Healer. Changing the name might let them ease on the definition and make scholar half healer and half arcanist/green mage.

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The thing that baffles me is that they don't have the same problem when it comes to tanks (who are also not dps). If they don't need the dps label, we shouldn't. Support would be a middle ground label, which might help. Unfortunately there isn't a good existing word (which I can think of) to describe someone who both heals and does damage. Probably because it's a concept not many games have embraced. The fact that this game used to is what drew me to it...

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Originally Posted by Sloprano

In the aftermath of 5.0 I've read several forum posts that the ACN/SCH split was necessary for problems the developers had with classes and especially SMN/SCH sharing a class. With them being a relic from 1.0 and balance issues. Does anyone know what kind of problems they have been facing?

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It's an issue because Yoshi-P said that it didn't pan out as well as they hoped it would, and as such they won't be doing it again.

That's it basically, when it comes to actually playing the game neither Scholar nor Summoner gameplay is negatively effected by the link.

Also, hey Quil o/

Im 50 50. on getting energy drain back. like okay great i have some thing to use in older content and maybe 70-80 if the tank allows me to dps maybe on boss fights to get a bit more dps out. i'd be more accepting of it if we actually got a trait to upgrade it further

Art of war dosent feel right. we'd be better off getting our AOE Miasma back.. and call that our second dot and spammable all in one.

i know Ruin 2 helps keep up dps while we move.. but it would've been nice to see an upgrade to that or a change to a dot.

I dont think we need all of our Damage dealing skills back.. but skills that compliment it more when we have to heal more. Having dots was kinda essential while i tried to rotate adlo and Physic cause while thats going at least some thing for damage was going out to help kill things faster. like yeah okay i know its the goal to heal more through dungeons.. but Astro and Whm both can comfortably Heal and Damage at the same time. Scholar Dosent maybe thats just me but if i have to burn 3 stacks and double down on shields Dissipate burn 2-3 more and keep spamming i'm having a tank problem or DD problem.. but unlike WHM and AST, SCH cant do anything about it. they can both sit there a solid Heal with Benefic 2 or cure 2 and still try to push out damage time to time.

its just punishing to play it feels like. and now the fairies are no different from one another wtf. Honestly. i wish the AOE Esuna and quicken back but just have it cost fairy gauge so i actually have some thing to use it on other than Dungeon pulls... Turn Selene into a DD fairy with single target Attacks and call it a day.

less ranting i guess but..

Energy Drain needs a trait to make it better higher level wise to make it worth using a bit more. thats however my opinion. a potency increase or an increase to MP regen would be nice to see.

Ruin 2 Could use a Trait to upgrade it to another Dot or just flat out potency increase just a tad

Art of War i guess if i think about it. its Fine. but id much rather see the Miasma AOE back and maybe get a dot back with Bane. but again probably just my opinion.

2 extra fairy skills for spend fairy gauge on the old AOE esuna and Quicken would be nice.

Selene getting a use again would be awesome. instead of embrace just give it a single target damage attack to attack with you like the Trance summons work..

Physic needs a 50 potency increase. that's all i think of really to improve sch just a slightest. it dosent have to be OP it dosent need to be full on dps. just a couple skill changes would make a difference and we'd still be able to heal as much as we have to now.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It's an issue because Yoshi-P said that it didn't pan out as well as they hoped it would, and as such they won't be doing it again.

That's it basically, when it comes to actually playing the game neither Scholar nor Summoner gameplay is negatively effected by the link.

Also, hey Quil o/

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Cheers, that makes sense. The incessant removal of arcanist skills seem more now more their job design than something that prevented them from taking the jobs in the directions they wanted. Not for any technical or legacy code issue, then the issue if it was tested in solo and 4-man content comes up again.

And hey Tali \o.

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Originally Posted by FIDOISHERE

I dont think we need all of our Damage dealing skills back.. but skills that compliment it more when we have to heal more. Having dots was kinda essential while i tried to rotate adlo and Physic cause while thats going at least some thing for damage was going out to help kill things faster. like yeah okay i know its the goal to heal more through dungeons.. but Astro and Whm both can comfortably Heal and Damage at the same time. Scholar Dosent maybe thats just me but if i have to burn 3 stacks and double down on shields Dissipate burn 2-3 more and keep spamming i'm having a tank problem or DD problem.. but unlike WHM and AST, SCH cant do anything about it. they can both sit there a solid Heal with Benefic 2 or cure 2 and still try to push out damage time to time.

its just punishing to play it feels like. and now the fairies are no different from one another wtf. Honestly. i wish the AOE Esuna and quicken back but just have it cost fairy gauge so i actually have some thing to use it on other than Dungeon pulls... Turn

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Indeed, if feels like they could've done so much more. The gauge, the fairies. I'd love to see something new that makes the old version pale in comparison. So reason why I'm asking for return of the 3.0 Scholar is that it worked and flowed well. I was hoping that was the standard and they wanted to achieve at least that measure of engagement and fun: Strong AF skills that are limited, costly shields and weak heals, a strong healing fairy, a fairy full of tools, Cleric stance, five dots, shadowflare.

The whole skillset seemes to be skewed in balance. Reason I bring up 3.0 is that scholar's healing/mitigation skills made up roughly half of your buttons and the tools that did or helped do damage was the other half. Slowly ever since we've lost more damage options for more healing options, but more healing haven't been needed. So we heal as we always have, but when the time comes you want to do something different there is only Broil III.

That sounds kinda nice if they brought back some of that. honestly i would not argue it. i just dunno if they'd even consider it.

if people could push for a few things forward instead if full on backward i think they might actually take a suggestion or two even after the back hand to healers from last live letter or whatever it was.. Not really back hand but y'know what i mean lol.

the class still feels good in its own awkward way. but they could definitely make it a lil smoother while trying to keep the current More healing thing they want.

i kinda put some more thought into it. but what if got Miasma 2 back as a cooldown for sorts. takes a stack. its instant cast. has 30-60 second cooldown has high potency for some burst but not like 900 crazy. cause it will leave a dot behind. and its not like old Miasma 2 close range its a long range target skill hits all other targets. Boom more to play with stacks wise other than just Energy drain.

For fairies i think we can push an idea out if people kinda like it. though i understand why they did what they did to the fairies a lil.. its just ugh. okay QoL and now more dancing fairies for skills OKAY fine..

but now instead of getting rid of 1 or the other and just giving us an option to /changeskin in chat like egi's.. we have 2 fairy summons for no reason.

Eos Needs a healing potency increase. and Selene needs to be a Damage turret.

now.. this might break the fairies a lil.. but if we're talking about comfort healing and Damage. Eos gives higher healing. i'm sorry the 3k for a tank with 112k hp is not enough make it a 5k heal. Whm and Ast single target regens can be refreshed any time same with AOE's and they heal for a TON more. i believe this would make up a lil bit more. the Healing potency for Aetherpact needs to put up just a smidge. your losing the use of your fairy basically. it should be a lil higher. Yes you can use your skills and break the chain and re-attach it. but this a focused healing stream it should be a lil higher

as for Selene for damage turret. i think the method of how Bahamut and Phoenix auto attacks when you damage any enemy your targeting works just fine. 1 we dont need a dot back because selene is basically our new dot when we attack. Change Aether pact function to a focus damage stream to the selected target. if it moves out of range it breaks the stream. there's more use to our fairy gauge now. Honestly even saying this sounds kinda OP. but Aetherpact takes work to get up to be any use really. and if the fairy is dealing like 3k-5k with you it dosent sound all that bad but idk.. Broil 3 with selene.. then your dot.. and if we slap in that new Miasma 2 idea i threw out.. it might blast past Whm dps and ast pretty fast.


...Physic still needs a 50 potency increase though god of ALL THE HEALS to gimp when its spose to be a spam between shields it is the weakest heal ffs. lol

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Originally Posted by FIDOISHERE

That sounds kinda nice if they brought back some of that. honestly i would not argue it. i just dunno if they'd even consider it.

if people could push for a few things forward instead if full on backward i think they might actually take a suggestion or two even after the back hand to healers from last live letter or whatever it was.. Not really back hand but y'know what i mean lol.

the class still feels good in its own awkward way. but they could definitely make it a lil smoother while trying to keep the current More healing thing they want.

i kinda put some more thought into it. but what if got Miasma 2 back as a cooldown for sorts. takes a stack. its instant cast. has 30-60 second cooldown has high potency for some burst but not like 900 crazy. cause it will leave a dot behind. and its not like old Miasma 2 close range its a long range target skill hits all other targets. Boom more to play with stacks wise other than just Energy drain.

For fairies i think we can push an idea out if people kinda like it. though i understand why they did what they did to the fairies a lil.. its just ugh. okay QoL and now more dancing fairies for skills OKAY fine..

but now instead of getting rid of 1 or the other and just giving us an option to /changeskin in chat like egi's.. we have 2 fairy summons for no reason.

Eos Needs a healing potency increase. and Selene needs to be a Damage turret.

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I have been churning the idea of one fairy being the "attack" fairy, like the autoturrets of mch/Bahamut/Esteem, at first it didn't sit right. Now I sort of curious if she could've gotten an opposite of Embrace, like Rebuff or Repudiate. Your version of Miasma 2 could be Bane only instead of having less and less damage per mob it hits it could spread dots and give an instant damage depending on the amount of dots on the target. Hopefully they focus on making it good to play before thinking about potencies.

Fully agree I'd see Embrace buffed, it has only gotten weaker over the years, and manual control restored as I want her to focus on those who most need it. And yeah, even in SB for the cost of tethering your fairy to a target I stil found myself often needing to help out on the target. Keep wanting Aetherpact with the Return of a stronger Rouse. Enjoy to see them double-down on the fairy multitasking, not find new ways to lock her down.

Regarding physick, it's already the last healing spell I use if everything else is used or use to restore some health during downtimes. I wouldn't mind if it stayed the way it is, so it keeps with the idea that the Scholar is slightly rubbish at healing compared to the other healers and need to rely on Eos to fill up healthbars.

Bumping thread, was falling asleep again with this boring 1 button dps rotation that makes up 97% of all content in the game. You rarely have to heal for you to have such a boring experience when not healing. My hopeful changes.

Scholar

*Removeable of the animation locked on all fairy commands that was introduced in SHB, and giving us back the ability to control fairy embrace.
*An increased high potency on fae union or a complete rework/redesign of the ability to make it feel impactful and exciting.
*More uses for fae gauge
* An engaging DPS rotation on this class in particular. I can not count how many times I have fallen asleep in content playing healers and the changes to the DPS rotation have only made that worse.
* Give back bane and remove Art of war, or rework ART of war and still give back BANE.
* Give back quickened aether flow.
* Healer combos, like Lustrate healing twice as much on the second cast or healing procs of some kind that can even be tied to unlock dps skills
* Barrier indicator on the part list for Seraph
* And instant on-demand shield healing ogdc action.
* Rework Crit Aldos
* Deploy more than just aldos.