Auto attack: A complete battle system

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Rather than changing the style of attack completely, what would be the best way to go about preventing people from complaining about spammy actions or "lack of strategic actions"?

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I think even with Auto Attack you would still be spamming 1-0 just like you do now or worse. Fall asleep waiting for TP ala FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Like what? Honest question, since the only one I know of is Vindictus. I think even Guild Wars 2 is going the auto-attack route.

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Another one that's actually available is DC Universe Online, which has a great combat system without auto-attack. The game has a lot of issues outside of combat though, I wouldn't recommend it without a trial first. Actually I wouldn't recommend it at all, as it will seriously spoil your experience of combat in the classic MMOs.
The strongest contenders for action combat MMOs are still not available, Blood&Soul, GW2 (not really auto-attack, but a toggle system, and VERY dynamic) are all still in development, TERA is only out in Korea.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

Another one that's actually available is DC Universe Online, which has a great combat system without auto-attack. The game has a lot of issues outside of combat though, I wouldn't recommend it without a trial first. Actually I wouldn't recommend it at all, as it will seriously spoil your experience of combat in the classic MMOs.
The strongest contenders for action combat MMOs are still not available, Blood&Soul, GW2 (not really auto-attack, but a toggle system, and VERY dynamic) are all still in development, TERA is only out in Korea.

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You pretty much nailed all of the games I would have given as an example.

I like the basics of this idea I only add that you should be able to change stances depending on the situation. Like switching to a defensive stance if your parties tank is KOed or switching from slower stronger attacks for high defense mobs to light fast ones for smaller enemies.

Auto attack wasnt the problem with battle, as your skill repetoire grows you use a lot of different attacks, every attack served a purpose. BUT then again this was back in the day where you were rewarded for fighting difficult mobs that used a variety of abilities. Now the best exp is from groups where you barely do anything and most of your skills dont matter. Got to remember, the game used to reward you for being effective in battle, so spamming basic attacks was only a good idea if it actually was the most effective.

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Originally Posted by RemnantWolf

I like the basics of this idea I only add that you should be able to change stances depending on the situation. Like switching to a defensive stance if your parties tank is KOed or switching from slower stronger attacks for high defense mobs to light fast ones for smaller enemies.

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Thats why im hoping they go back and look at the different displays on the main XIV site.

If it's anything at all like FFXI, I will fall asleep playing. That system is old and boring and I like the fact FFXIV has an action type style to it. I'm involved with the attacking not just waiting for the ability to ohmygooses special attack. I don't see how there is spamming when I have two lines of actions I am constantly using to heal, attack and shed off damage. Please work with the system now and not scrap it for something that has worked previously to just attract and silence players. I have liked most of the fixes besides the targeting, but that was fixed as well. All I can do is hold my breath and trust Yoshi-P.

Argh well typed out a reply but apparently it didn't post.

Pretty much I like the way FFXIV does it. I like being in control 100% of my characters every action. I can spam attacks to burst or I can ease them out at my leisure. It makes the game feel more immersive.

The one problem I had with auto attacks in in FFXI I often found my self just setting my character to auto attacking a mob while I would watch tv, read a book, or something else that wasn't FFXI. Then just every once in a while check my character to do a WS, use a ability, or to see if my target was even still alive.

Archers will hate auto attack. Spamming arrows = waste of arrows.

ahhh well, too bad auto attack, and a new system where it is required is coming, man it sounds like it will be bad

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

lost a lengthy post due to login time out, lets see if I can make this quick.

Some of us want auto attack other like the active battle system. How about we do a little of both.

All basic attacks are now auto attacks. Attack and be turned on/off (while weapon is drawn) as not to break sleep or bind or other forms of crowd control. The rate of attack is based on weapon type. So 2 handers attack slow but hit hard, and one handers attack fast but light. Auto attacks generate TP which is used for abilities or weapon skills. the Rate of attack can be augmented through the use of food, spells or gear.

Stamina remains in place and is used to govern the amount of Spells/Skills you can use in a time frame. Stamina is regenerated at a steady rate which can be augmented through food, spells or abilities.

Spells, Weapon skills, and abilities consume TP and/or Stamina and can be used at will as long as you have the available TP and/or stamina to do so.

Battle regimens abilities can be cued up (TP and stamina for skill consumed) Auto attack continues until regimen is completed or canceled. No WS or abilities can be used while cued for a battle regimen.

I think a battle system of this type allows for the fast paced action of firing of abilities spells and weapon skills while taking the chore of basic attacks for TP gain out of the equation. This allow room for socialization while in battle and creates less for a work load for the player.

edit: added /or to: consume TP and(/or) Stamina (forgot to add that in lol)

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I agree with this with minor difference; instead of consuming tp with regular abilities, it should be reserved for a special, stronger attack that can only be executed with a full tp gauge. Stamina alone should be used for normal abilities and should regen the same way it does now (enhanced like the op stated).

I'd like to see Auto-Attack so I can talk to my party and just goof around with them and talk about whatever it is that comes up. Couldn't even reply to a party member because I was forced to use one all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

I'd like to see Auto-Attack so I can talk to my party and just goof around with them and talk about whatever it is that comes up. Couldn't even reply to a party member because I was forced to use one all the time.

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I don't believe you were 'forced' to hit one all the time. If I want to chat with my friends while in battle, I can do so and not feel over encumbered by pressing buttons. (Unless it's a very hard battle like one of the older NMs. Which if that were the case I am not in a position to be goofing off in the first place.) This is not saying that I don't think auto attack could possibly be a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying no one forces you to spam, but yourself. So this argument is so silly. ^^;

i think its a bad idea to base the game around typing. They should just improve exp gains so when you want to just talk, you just take a break and talk

Well excuse me for not being as 'Hardcore Gamer' as you are, Eldaena. I'm so sorry that me wanting to chat to friends and other relative gamers bothers you so bad as an excuse to wanting auto-attack. Not only do I want to chat with people to talk about whatever, it'd also be nice if I could type instructions/commands/thoughts while still being engaged to the enemy. I'd like my character to attack while I'm typing rather than just hit "1" then type something while my character stands around.

This is a game to enjoy, not obsess over. If I wanted to be serious, I'd build an addition to my garage. There is nothing serious enough not to goof off a little bit eventually. I'd much rather this game lean more towards the leisure style that XI had. Tapping the same button all the time is too stupid and repetitive.

Oh! And it's not an argument. It's my opinion. If you have a problem with that; Oh well. Didn't buy the game to hear some moron tell me I'm 'silly' for saying something.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Well excuse me for not being as 'Hardcore Gamer' as you are, Eldaena. I'm so sorry that me wanting to chat to friends and other relative gamers bothers you so bad as an excuse to wanting auto-attack. Not only do I want to chat with people to talk about whatever, it'd also be nice if I could type instructions/commands/thoughts while still being engaged to the enemy. I'd like my character to attack while I'm typing rather than just hit "1" then type something while my character stands around.

This is a game to enjoy, not obsess over. If I wanted to be serious, I'd build an addition to my garage. There is nothing serious enough not to goof off a little bit eventually. I'd much rather this game lean more towards the leisure style that XI had. Tapping the same button all the time is too stupid and repetitive.

Oh! And it's not an argument. It's my opinion. If you have a problem with that; Oh well. Didn't buy the game to hear some moron tell me I'm 'silly' for saying something.

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I didn't say anything at all about being 'hardcore' or not. lol And why is everyone that has any issue with something you say suddenly a 'moron'? I wish you'd stop trolling all these forums. =p

Anyway, it looks like they are going to implement auto attack regardless, so that's not the issue here. It IS fun to chat with your friends and socialize while you're fighting. But if you're doing that stuff on an important fight and use your auto attack to do it, I'm not sure how many people will want you in their party. There is fun in doing things right too, and not just goofing around.

You don't need to spam 111111111 in this game. This is just a bad habit that many people have picked up because they are impatient as hell, lol. I can show many examples where spamming attack or even if I had an auto attack wouldn't benefit me in any way. (On my mages, or my Gladiator or Pugilist as well.)

Typically, if I find myself in a chatty mood, I do an attack/spell/or an ability, then type while the action is going off, then go back to fighting. The only times I ever have problems socializing in this manner is when I need to constantly be spamming heals and dots on NMs, but that is usually because we low man everything which means working doubletime on fights.

My point is 'socializing purposes' is not a good reason to add autoattack. If they want to focus more on spells and abilities that's fine, but come on....'I have problems being chatty when in battle.' That seems really counterproductive to a well-oiled and enjoyable battle experience. =(

basically if you build a battle system that is entertaining enough when you have someone to talk to, how entertaining will the battle system be when you dont have anyone to talk to (are in a quiet party)

for my level of typing skill, and chosen playstyle which sometimes incorporates half a controller, typing in battle isnt that feasible for me, so i understand the desire to have a less active battle system, but really that makes the battle system crappier for my communication limitations.

i would honestly hope that auto attack was going to be a feature you could turn on and off, but looks like it will accompany changes to the battle system that make auto attack a basic and need function of the system. i will miss this system though, it really had some good moments, and strong potential for those who understood it.

I'll agree with this argument being silly. Not sure why anyone would link auto-attack to a more relaxed and social battle system. Who told you to stop taking action because your character is constantly attacking? Scale dmg down to compensate for auto-attack or mob health pools up, engage, and nothing else changes. Talking while in battle will still hinder your progress, not talking won't have you standing around either. As long as they keep the system we are currently using with the addition of auto-attack, things shouldn't change much; maybe it will encourage some to reserve stamina and stop hitting 11111, I dunno :p

many people said they want auto attack so they can talk more in battle, they feel like if they stop to do anything they are lowering there dmg. This of course is an illussion, because with the stamina system as long as you dont go to 100% nothing is wasted.
Thing is konnichiwa, they said that auto attack was more than just adding auto attack, they implied that without auto attack, the new battle system wouldnt function properly, this implies that not auto attacking will not allow you to be efficient in battle. So, people are basically bracing for a new, very different battle system, because our battle system right now is nothing like that.

I can hardly imagine what kind of battle system wouldn't function without auto attack in this game.... Besides a slower one. I wish they would give us some more info on what they are planning.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I can hardly imagine what kind of battle system wouldn't function without auto attack in this game.... Besides a slower one. I wish they would give us some more info on what they are planning.

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It might be a battle system where stamina is replenished only through auto-attack, in which case they should rename stamina since that might not make perfect sense.

Really wish they'd abolish the Stamina system. The TP system needs refined as well. Rather weird how you gain TP at a phenominal rate.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Really wish they'd abolish the Stamina system. The TP system needs refined as well. Rather weird how you gain TP at a phenominal rate.

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wha...? you want slower tp gain? why would anyone.... want less powers and skills.... less things to do in battle? especially when many reaction skills are tp based?
stamina serves a purpose in the current battle system, no idea if it will in the next battle system.

The TP gain seems to high for me when it comes to using weaponskills. When fighting enemies I get roughly 450-500 TP per hit? Coblyn's are about 250? It's still rather high considering that you'd need two hits to equal another weaponskill being ready. Hell I remember that Samurai could only manage 5-6 hit weaponskill.....And that's if you had the right build for it, too.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

The TP gain seems to high for me when it comes to using weaponskills. When fighting enemies I get roughly 450-500 TP per hit? Coblyn's are about 250? It's still rather high considering that you'd need two hits to equal another weaponskill being ready. Hell I remember that Samurai could only manage 5-6 hit weaponskill.....And that's if you had the right build for it, too.

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keep in mind thats an old system, for melee now, tp is your pool for all skills, you need tp to use phalanx, or your stun attack on evade skill, various debuffs. For example pugilist can lower mob accuracy 3 times, which effects how often you dodge, which is your survival and your dps, if it takes you a long time to get 3000 tp, or maintain the cuncussive blow, you lose a lot.

Now, to make sure you just dont go super tp happy, thats where stamina comes in, even if you have 1000 tp, if a weaponskill uses half your stamina, it has a different type of cost associated with it, so you have to make choices on what you use, this is also a big advantage to reactionary WS, they use very little stamina. Which allow you to play with a more defensive mindset. Glad for example, would never want to deplete tp or stamina completely, especially stamina because you need stamina to block, and tanking skills have a decent stamina cost, so here is where the low stamina reaction WS fit in very well, they allow you to balance your offense and defense better than if you had to use only 1000 and 3000 tp skills, also you need to get tp fast, even though you probably cant attack as much as DD due to using various vokes, and hate getting skills.


Its in all actuality a pretty deep system when you really get to know it, and you learn it more when you have to fight difficult things rather than tearing through weak mobs in 8 man groups.

The other factor, is tp in this game is based on your dmg done, so when you fight higher level, and higher defense mobs, you will get different types of tp returns.

The system needs to be streamlined, trimmed down and the remaining features to be enforced.

It is a very deep system. I like it the way it is and hope they dont decide to oust the stamina system.

With the implementation of auto-attack it would be very easy to base all other abilities off the stamina system and have the TP regain be maintained only for weaponskills. You say it's from an old system, but that system has stood the test of time in MMO. You don't fix what isn't broken.

They need to fix the stamina bug. How can we use stamina effectively when it glitches out a lot , and many have no way of telling if they do have any stamina at this time.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

With the implementation of auto-attack it would be very easy to base all other abilities off the stamina system and have the TP regain be maintained only for weaponskills. You say it's from an old system, but that system has stood the test of time in MMO. You don't fix what isn't broken.

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Its an outdated, fairly boring system. I enjoyed ffxi back in the day, but the combat was never that great on a personal level. Always felt like your were a bit of gimp. Coming together as a team had its moments, but it was pretty rare, that you as a player actually did something great in a fight.

sitting and waiting for 100 tp, boosting up and doing a weaponskills got boring as heck. they added a couple of interesting features here and there but it is an outdated and not enticing system.

Im not saying theres no battle system where auto attack can be cool, but making something like 11 would not be cool.
The difference game wise with making all other skills only stamina based, is basically, to get tp, you have to be involved in battle, so they are skills only available to people actively involved in battle, Most of the point of DD is balancing your stamina/tp/and tp building abilities to get as much bang for your buck as possible. LNC is a DD built around being able to increase stamina gains, and gain tp faster than others.

For example, Fient is best used by lancer, because they get fast tp/free tp, and enhanced stamina. missing on other jobs, then getting feint is cool, but since it costs TP you cant do it that well if you are always missing, in fact you wont get to do your first feint until you at least hit the mob once. if feint didnt cost tp, then it wouldnt really be as well balanced, and would favor the lnc class less than it does now.

note, most of these tp issues, and things like missing/not getting a lot tp due to dmg. only come into play on tougher mobs.


You dont fix what isnt broken, but you dont recreate something if you want to create a new product. Pizza is still there, why go to someone trying to make spagetti if you want pizza. This game is supposed to bring something different to the table.

That solution is as simple as longer cooldown timers. Right now Feint is overpowered in the sense that it's just supposed to be a guaranteed hit, not a weaponskill. Even critical damage from your weapon does less damage than Feint as a Lancer. It's really easy to take away the TP requirement for Feint and add a longer cooldown timer to balance it's powers. Instead of a three-five second cooldown, make it one-minute+ and it'll be done.

As far as you telling me they need to bring something different to the table? They always do. Doesn't mean they have to completely redesign everything in the game to please you. Flour is a required ingredient in both Pizza & Pasta. The battle system might've been boring to you, but to me it was great. Maybe you just weren't doing your jobs right, or never played endgame like me. Hell last thing I remember was when Dark Ixion came out and he was fun as hell to fight.

SE has always come up with different storylines, characters, ability systems, etc. They just started recently in the past two one-player RPG's (FFXII & FFXIII) have they started turning away from the turn-based-action. I am all for inovation, but it requires much time and/or trial & error. They have a massive Final Fantasy Fan crowd that aren't pleased at all. I can bet that you played other MMO's besides FFXI. This game isn't WoW or any other MMO from a different company. We wanted a FF game with a FF background. All I see now are graphics with dismal gameplay. Remember, don't fix what isn't broken. Oh, and like I said up above. Pizza or Pasta? You still need flower for both, my friend.

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Originally Posted by DonMega

Its sad because i liked the current battle system and its also sad that they felt they had to scrap it because either couldn't make it work or it would take too long to get it right.Whatever i'll give it a try i guess. Hurray for FFXI-2

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Not necessarily. Remember even FFX-2 and the upcoming FFXIII-2 are alot different from their predecessors. That and no FF game has ever had the exact same combat system, even if they shared similar features.

REMEMBER: Auto-attack does not equal the exact same thing as FFXI, no more than the ATB system in FFIV is the same as VI is the same as X.

Any ideas you've got, you may as well post them.

*Cough* TERA battle system *cough*

or the Monster Hunter battle system
or, since it might evoke less knee-jerks: The FF XIII Versus battle system
or anything that requires more skill than countless re-iterations of pre-defined ever-the-same skill rotations.

Don't get me wrong: I definitely don't like twitchy high-speed button mashing. But the FFXIV and FFXI battle systems are too static to be interesting.

Basically, I want a real fight. The necessity to react to the situation.
Not just a fight where the outcome is defined by how well I have memorized the optimal sequence of skills / abilities.

...did I make myself understood?

I want something involving. Dangerous. Thrilling. Less fights, but more meaningful ones.
Instead of killing the 10.000th Dodo in quick succession to get 0.1% of the EXP I need to level up, I want to fight a really dangerous beast that gives me 10%.

Ummm the monster hunter battle system is pretty much free flow just with a stamina gauge. You have some jobs that have TP buildup which lets you do a berserk type style mode... ffxiv is sorta like monhan now just everyone has those things.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

*Cough* TERA battle system *cough*

or the Monster Hunter battle system
or, since it might evoke less knee-jerks: The FF XIII Versus battle system
or anything that requires more skill than countless re-iterations of pre-defined ever-the-same skill rotations.

Don't get me wrong: I definitely don't like twitchy high-speed button mashing. But the FFXIV and FFXI battle systems are too static to be interesting.

Basically, I want a real fight. The necessity to react to the situation.
Not just a fight where the outcome is defined by how well I have memorized the optimal sequence of skills / abilities.

...did I make myself understood?

I want something involving. Dangerous. Thrilling. Less fights, but more meaningful ones.
Instead of killing the 10.000th Dodo in quick succession to get 0.1% of the EXP I need to level up, I want to fight a really dangerous beast that gives me 10%.

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skill rotations arent really the key here, you have to avoid and plan carefully, move in and out of battle BUUUUTTT that only matters if you fight something higher around 10+ levels higher than you solo, and in groups even higher, so what they should really do is eliminate the exp cap.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Rather than changing the style of attack completely, what would be the best way to go about preventing people from complaining about spammy actions or "lack of strategic actions"?

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TP costs need to be reexamined - there are far too many abilities that cost 1000 TP that provide little to no benefit over standard attacks. Most of those should cost 200-500 TP, and if an ability costs 1000-3000 TP, it should be worthwhile.

Streamline TP costs, lower stamina costs for TP moves, and give mobs attack vector awareness - if you hit a mob with the same attack several times in a row, it builds resistance to that specific attack, which can be lowered by using another. This would make the preferred attack chain something like 1-2-1-2-3-1-4-2-etc, which is viable with the current system already but this would encourage people to diversify in order to maximum their damage and effectiveness, instead of spamming.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Give mobs attack vector awareness - if you hit a mob with the same attack several times in a row, it builds resistance to that specific attack, which can be lowered by using another. This would make the preferred attack chain something like 1-2-1-2-3-1-4-2-etc, which is viable with the current system already but this would encourage people to diversify in order to maximum their damage and effectiveness, instead of spamming.

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Hell no. You're spamming already everytime you hit 1-2-3-4-5-6-blah-blah-bullshit. I hate this stupid ass battle system that requires YOU to hit a number like it's a damn broken record. I want auto-attack. Auto-attack isn't spamming, so shut up if that's all you have to say. It's not boring, either. Boring is pecking the "1" key every 2 seconds. Just like having to press enter at least 15 damn times per synth....It's just stupid. It's nothing special and doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Just because it gives you the illusion that you're doing something, doesn't mean you have to defend it. It's like running on a treadmill. Sure. You're running, but you're not going anywhere.

Another thing I'd like to see changed is the stupid ass quene in BR. Why not instead be able to make a quene in BR and then when everyone has put a move into the quene THEN you can start the BR which results in people to stop attacking and all that mumbo-jumbo. There's already enough s**t to fix in this game....I don't want to see "Vector Awareness" coming anywhere near a possibility. You know I'd love to be able to talk to my friends while fighting something....

Personally having come from ffxi im not too thrilled about the idea of going back to auto-attack because the whole no auto-attack was one of the reasons i purchased the game in the first place. I enjoy the current battle system despite its flaws but i'll reserve my judgement until i see what SE comes out with. For the most part i'll probbably be happy if the game doesnt become a leveling love affair where instead of running around participating in leves, behests etc the whole party just decides to pick a spot and send someone to pull till they ding max lv. Prior to level cap increases Nyzul isle's ability to be unpredictable and get you regardless of how prepared you went in is very much how i like to spend my time in a mmorpg. Being constantly in your comfort zone is boring and thats what made leveling in xi boring.

Just remember, The auto attack system is not only supposed to have a much shorter delay than FFXI according to the lead battle director, but also done in a way where you cant just defeat enemies by relying on auto attack alone (should be obvious but still).

It wont be anything like XI...and auto attack wasnt the cause behind party camps in XI. XIV is still going to focus on mobile exp, moving from place to place or cutting/blasting/stabbing/punching your way through a dungeon, just hopefully with a better more thought out battle system where the stats matter.

The battle system should also improve the importance of character positioning (attack from the left, right, front, rear) and character distance like the image showing attack radius on the main FFXIV site.