[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

Good post Darth Taru

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

EXP loss until you're at level cap ... right?

:| Nothing like being in a level cap dungeon then BAM! You wipe thanks to someone else and you're level 49 >.>

-- Will encourage less interaction =] as less people will want to rely on someone else.

There will be less 'Tanks' too because they'd die more than others, and then there would be a stress on 'Healers' -- bigger expectations.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

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In the situation with NMs and the learning curve DP didn't effect how smart we were about fighting it or how many attempts it would take. All it did was mean we had less attempts at trying to take it down before we had to go get our levels back. Fighting NMs was and is fun. Grinding XP was not. I can accept that you might like grinding xp and that you enjoyed the sense of danger that the DP created for you. But can you acknowledge that there are a lot of us that didn't feel the same as you?

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Quit looping things out of context. DarthTaru is only stating one example as to why FFXI was good, and a death penalty WAS one of the many many things. It kept people on their toes. Using sneak and invisible to move stealthly. If you implored bad judgment, death was inevitable and it came at a price. It made you think twice in terms of imploring a great strategy to defeat XP/HNM/Dynamis/Etc enemies without having to die. Now if you wipe on an NM, oh well. Let's fall twenty to thirty times because we can just zerg it with no penalties.......No.

That's what he means about it takes a certain level of challenge from the game. If you wiped on an HNM in FFXI you were SoL. If you constantly died, you deleveled. With a death penalty involved in the equation it added a sense of survival to the gameplay. It made you flee when you were in over your head, and spam your two-hour abilities when available to at least try to defeat the enemy. I'm a long-time FFXI player and I despised the death penalty, but looking back now.........Wow. It adds a bit of difficulty when you think about it. If I died while leveling blm solo, that's more time chalked onto leveling. It made me fight to the best to avoid dying.

Don't care who you are, or which other previous MMO you came from. This is Final Fantasy. I didn't buy this game to play a gimmick of other MMO games. I bought it because I thought it was a Final Fantasy MMO. So in a way I'm glad that the team from FFXI is now holding the ropes of this new installment. Maybe now I'll find that feeling that became lost when I first starting playing FFXIV.

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HNMs just show how death penalty doesnt matter, they expected people to die, many strategies involve dying. People are expected to build up buffer, so they can die repeatedly in endgame content, as long as everyone doesnt die at once, there is no wipe. HNM that were hard, IT DIDNT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU DIED because just coming back to life wasnt going to allow you to defeat them, while you could use coming back to life to deal with specific issues, you needed a setup to deal with death, or else you failed.
Endgame stuff, no one cared if you died, sometimes they expected it, they also expect you to go get your exp back. It really is just a time sink. There really is no logical reason why dying should make you lose experience. Also it punishes people who dont have access to fast exp more, IE the slow leveling solo guy hates dying, but the party guy who gets 20k an hour doesnt give a damn. But who is more likely to die?

I agree 100%... hell went back and started a new character in ffxi and had more fun in the first 20 minutes playing that game for the first time in 5 years than all the time i played 14 from beta-january.

yeah, but ffxi still exists, and has 6 years of content, tweaks and development behind it. How can any game compete if it offers the same thing. Im not saying this game doesnt need to change or evolve, but it is foolish for them to make this game like ffxi, when they are still making and supporting ffxi, they would just be canabalizing their own market. They need to make a different and good game. Death penalty isnt the answer for that

Okay. Let's face the facts. In every single game EVER devoloped, there has been a consequence towards dying or failing a certain aspect of the game. In Super Mario if you were squashed, stomped, chewed, eaten, flamed, or bombed, you either started from the start of the level, or at the checkpoint half-way. In Call Of Duty if you died, you had a delay timer from being respawn and also lost your killstreak. In Batman: Arkham Asylum if Batman got the **** beat out of him, Joker would come out and say, "Haha!" in your face and you'd be forced to try again. On Ace Combat (or whatever I'm thinking of) if your airplane was shot down, you'd be forced to buy another plane in order to replace the one you blew up.

Basically what I'm saying is that in a world of MMO where a lot of you time is based on leveling, it would seem perfectly feasable that XP be lost per death. There must be a consequence for you being irrational and dying stupidly. I've seen so many people go out in Behest and just get ravaged by a group of enemies and then come back to take another 2-3 deaths and lay there while they still gain XP dead. A weakness is good for a consequence, but it needs something more as an incentive to stop people from acting like Baboons when it comes to fighting. It will implore no strategy in the long run. Just keep attacking until you die and still you'll gain XP for it.

I try to get people to see the other end of the spectrum, but you choose to ignore it and rebutal with nothing. It's just along the lines of people's complaints with Call of Duty: Black Ops. If you get shot in the chest or face, there's no way in hell you're getting back up. Make some consequences worth remembrance and bring back a challenge.

P.S. Play on the hardest difficulty on any game. Guaran-damn-tee you that most of the time you get your ass whooped, have limited saves, and you deal less damage to the AI. That's a challenge. Where's FFXIV's?

reduced exp while weakened might make more sense, see before you could only get exp for actions, so the lower stamina basically lowered your exp gain for that time, as well as dying again would make this last longer, and less hp is usually dangerous with aoe mobs. Now there is no such factors, but minus exp is a different story. In a FPS it would be closer to losing unlocks, you have done whatever it is to unlock your levels/skills, then if you suck it relocks them? wouldnt make too much sense. Anyhow making people fear dying doesnt stop newbs from dying, look at ffxi quifim, kazham, i rem when we first played, we basically new to get extra exp, because chances are we would die going back to kahzam, only way to avoid that was to be rdm, or have prisms, which at that level and time, no one had money for, and wasnt even sold as often. Especially this game, it doesnt make sense, they made the monsters tougher knowing you can die. Many mobs stronger than you have some sort of powerful weaponskill that can kill easily. ressurection only has a 1 min cooldown. they know you can die easily here, by being in range of aoe WS, turning the mob, you are much more likely to die in this game, so death penalty is a bad idea. Stopping zerging, and adding a death penalty are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay. Let's face the facts. In every single game EVER devoloped, there has been a consequence towards dying or failing a certain aspect of the game. In Super Mario if you were squashed, stomped, chewed, eaten, flamed, or bombed, you either started from the start of the level, or at the checkpoint half-way. In Call Of Duty if you died, you had a delay timer from being respawn and also lost your killstreak. In Batman: Arkham Asylum if Batman got the **** beat out of him, Joker would come out and say, "Haha!" in your face and you'd be forced to try again. On Ace Combat (or whatever I'm thinking of) if your airplane was shot down, you'd be forced to buy another plane in order to replace the one you blew up.

Basically what I'm saying is that in a world of MMO where a lot of you time is based on leveling, it would seem perfectly feasable that XP be lost per death. There must be a consequence for you being irrational and dying stupidly. I've seen so many people go out in Behest and just get ravaged by a group of enemies and then come back to take another 2-3 deaths and lay there while they still gain XP dead. A weakness is good for a consequence, but it needs something more as an incentive to stop people from acting like Baboons when it comes to fighting. It will implore no strategy in the long run. Just keep attacking until you die and still you'll gain XP for it.

I try to get people to see the other end of the spectrum, but you choose to ignore it and rebutal with nothing. It's just along the lines of people's complaints with Call of Duty: Black Ops. If you get shot in the chest or face, there's no way in hell you're getting back up. Make some consequences worth remembrance and bring back a challenge.

P.S. Play on the hardest difficulty on any game. Guaran-damn-tee you that most of the time you get your ass whooped, have limited saves, and you deal less damage to the AI. That's a challenge. Where's FFXIV's?

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The FFXI death penalty didn't make the bad players any better. It also didn't make it's content more challenging or harder.