Revelations from Patch 7.4: Into the Mist

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I think this is a pretty common sentiment, and one like to happen to most players on at least one occasion. The side effect of a narrative for our character is that not every single person will be pleased all at the same time, particularly at times when fan majority rule takes effect, such as with Emet or G'raha, who they do have a tendency to push based on their popularity. But I think it's a reasonable trade-off for a much more engaging story and sense of depth for our character, and in fairness to them, they never take it to much excess - the barebones of it is the WoL is a good guy who tries to connect with and at least understand the people they meet, be they friend or foe, while helping where they can, and so long as they continue to operate within that outline, as with Azem, the prospect of alienating the playerbase is unlikely. And even if it hadn't been before, I think Wuk Lumat taught them the dangers of pushing something a little too hard.

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I fully agree with this part. Reading your post actually made me realize I sort of pick and choose which aspects of the WoL are cannon in my head and which I tend to ignore (the DRK storyline for instance). And it would work like that for anything Azem related too I guess.
But I sort of stick to my point which is "the writers would never" because 6 expansions in, I have never felt they are comfortable with this. And while Azem is a good entry door to fleshing out the WoL indirectly, I think they had a lot of opportunities to do so since ShB, and they never did. So unless they change the way they write, I'm not inclined to imagine something in the story to come in these lines. But as I said, I agree with you in principle, it could be done and it could be great.

So please if I'm wrong come 8.0, come back to me and you'll have a free coffee on me lol.

The whole "we become the Ancient Azem" isn't really possible for us as we see our WoL as the game has repeatedly stated that people can have the same souls but be completely different in every way. Hermes to Amon is the usual example used, but compare your personal WoL to Ardbert, and Emet repeatedly made it clear we weren't HIS Azem.

That said, maybe another shard of Azem is behind the key? It's possible ruins of the Ancient society exists on other shards just like we saw on the First, or. Just maybe, the Ascians tried to raise one up in the past?

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

... [M]aybe another shard of Azem is behind the key? It's possible ruins of the Ancient society exists on other shards just like we saw on the First, or. Just maybe, the Ascians tried to raise one up in the past?

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Azem had their name struck from history due to not supporting the Zodiark plan, and like all sundered beings would have no memory of Amaurot either due to that sundering or death and rebirth cleansing their memories. By the time the story takes place the only people who could have known about Azem were the three unsundered Ascians (Elidibus - who was suffering from dementia due to his existence as a primal, Lahabrea - who never mentioned them and based on our interactions during the Pandaemonium plot wouldn't have gotten along with them very well, and Emet-Selch - who had to make the Azem crystal in secret as a personal memento).

Considering that last bit it's improbable if not implausible "another Azem" made the Key.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I fully agree with this part. Reading..

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That's fair enough. I do see what you're saying - but I suppose I kind of take the "never say never" path, and in a way I think the devs would say the same thing. Maybe they did decide that at one point, but in a new era of the game, with a new struggle on the horizon - who's to say? They've talked a lot lately of learning from the past, and taking with them what works while trying new things, so I guess we'll see exactly what that means soon enough. I 100% agree though that it really does all boil down to how they do it. We'll see who gets that coffee!

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

The whole "we become the Ancient Azem" isn't really possible for us as we see our WoL as the game has repeatedly stated that people can have the same souls but be completely different in every way. Hermes to Amon is the usual example used, but compare your personal WoL to Ardbert, and Emet repeatedly made it clear we weren't HIS Azem.

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The story has actually dropped a few hints about how much we're like Azem, both in looks and personality. I think it was Emet himself who said we're their "spitting image." Also, have we seen Amon without his mask?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Amon had dreams about Amaurot and the Final Days? I can't remember if it was mentioned that Loghrif or Mitron did as well, but I think it's been said that shards can and have had visions about it.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The story has actually dropped a few hints about how much we're like Azem, both in looks and personality. I think it was Emet himself who said we're their "spitting image." Also, have we seen Amon without his mask?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Amon had dreams about Amaurot and the Final Days? I can't remember if it was mentioned that Loghrif or Mitron did as well, but I think it's been said that shards can and have had visions about it.

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A physical (or even spiritual) resemblance to Final Days Azem doesn't mean we literally are Azem, or become them at some point in the future. A big part of Emet-Selch's characterization is his difficulty grasping that however much we may resemble Azem we are our own person, something he ultimately concedes when brought back in Ultima Thule.

Amon has never been seen without his mask. Having said that there can be significant differences between reincarnations. While not confirmed it's heavily implied Tenzen (from the Four Lords trial series) was an Azem incarnation, Ardbert and the PC probably look almost nothing alike, and most glaringly Mitron's Final Days incarnation was a woman as stated in one of the Encyclopedia Eorzea books.

Amon's dreams were stated to be of his time as Hermes on Elpis, before the Final Days; no other sundered Ascian has been stated to experience something similar. Meteor showers trigger Final Days flashbacks in people who can awaken the Echo, but this is not unique to former Convocation seat holders.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

A physical (or even spiritual) resemblance to Final Days Azem doesn't mean we literally are Azem, or become them at some point in the future. A big part of Emet-Selch's characterization is his difficulty grasping that however much we may resemble Azem we are our own person, something he ultimately concedes when brought back in Ultima Thule.

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I wasn't saying we were, just that the issue isn't so much one of resemblance.

With regards to Emet, I'm not sure I fully agree with that interpretation, but we all perceive things differently. To be fair, he has so many layers to him that you could argue any number of angles for him, really.

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Amon's dreams were stated to be of his time as Hermes on Elpis, before the Final Days; no other sundered Ascian has been stated to experience something similar.

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Oh, good. I didn't think we had, but knowing my luck there would have been some scene in Endwalker I'd forgotten.

And ahh, that was it. I'd ran into that scene not too long ago by coincidence and knew he said something about dreams. Thanks!

I'm just going to drop this here:

I'm going to be very VERY disappointed if this is yet another "reflection in trouble" arc where we just turn around and never come back.

I want to "Shadowbringers" the 9th.

It wouldn't even be as arduous.
We have an entire city made of electrope that could be repurposed to convert the excess thunder aether to restore balance.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Amon's dreams were stated to be of his time as Hermes on Elpis, before the Final Days; no other sundered Ascian has been stated to experience something similar. Meteor showers trigger Final Days flashbacks in people who can awaken the Echo, but this is not unique to former Convocation seat holders.

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Emet's ranting in the Qitana Ravel told us that people did remember life before the Sundering after it, but not especially well. So it is plausible that someone remembered the legend of Azem enough to write something down--or found a physical piece of evidence, like perhaps graffiti--and went 'you could make a religion out of this'. A probably now-dead religion, but one that survived enough to make some relics in this figure's name and ideal.

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Originally Posted by plasmacutter

I'm just going to drop this here:

I'm going to be very VERY disappointed if this is yet another "reflection in trouble" arc where we just turn around and never come back.

I want to "Shadowbringers" the 9th.

It wouldn't even be as arduous.
We have an entire city made of electrope that could be repurposed to convert the excess thunder aether to restore balance.

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My guess, we're gonna treat the Ninth like a combination of the First and Thirteenth.

We ain't getting a whole Ninth expansion; like the Thirteenth, there's not enough visual distinctiveness between locations, and no real way to get all of an expansion's required 'bullet points' out of it. And likewise, we probably aren't saving it at any point; we literally do not have the means, and if 'an entire city made of electrope' could fix the whole planet, one of the multiple cities like that on the Ninth would've done it already. The Ninth simply cannot take the shape of a whole expansion, and that's okay.

That said, that's not the only shape things can take. I suspect a variant or deep dungeon in the future, where someone goes 'we need to find Lindblum' and we get a whole mini-adventure out of that. I'd personally prefer Tural get that attention beforehand just out of preference for the aesthetic and setting--I like purple, I just prefer there being more colors than that--but I suspect we're hitting up the Ninth at some point.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Oh, good. I didn't think we had, but knowing my luck there would have been some scene in Endwalker I'd forgotten.

And ahh, that was it. I'd ran into that scene not too long ago by coincidence and knew he said something about dreams. Thanks!

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I think the implication is that the collective aether of a soul can have memories so completely ingrained into them that the aetherial sea just cannot fully cleanse them before rebirth.

It seems pretty much everyone was scarred this way by the Final Days, but Elpis (and his time as Amon when the Allagan empire began imploding from decadence) really messed up Hermes.

Zenos was also having dreams of wandering Amaurot during the Final Days, but I don't recall if that was from his Resonant surgery of from being grandson to Emet-Selch.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I think the implication is that the collective aether of a soul can have memories..

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Yeah, particularly traumatic memories leave a permanent imprint on the soul that can follow the individual through multiple reincarnations, hence the reaction to the meteor showers in certain people. After looking it up, with Hermes it was the loss of Meteion that haunted him and, ironically, the use of Kairos that further "etched" these memories into his soul and caused him to remember his time in Elpis as Amon.

As for Zenos, the devs have indeed since said it was supposedly a side effect of being related to an Ancient, and that the memory was something "passed down" to him genetically.