"Players who already like the way things are can feel at ease..."

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Originally Posted by Striker44

From my view, I think a difficult part of adding truly unique abilities for different jobs is the way they can potentially imbalance fights, and SE has been big on trying to prevent certain jobs from being "required" or locked out by the community because of their skill set (that hasn't stopped it from happening due to potency imbalances, but those are much more easily correctable). I think back to my WoW days when a particular raid fight had an add phase that was completely trivialized by Mass Dispel. But only Shadow Priests and Blood Elves had that ability. The fight favored Horde raiders because only they could be Blood Elves, while Alliance groups virtually *had* to bring a Shadow Priest to clear the fight. Personally, I'd rather have jobs feeling more "similar" than situations like the WoW example popping up in FFXIV.

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A sensible balance when it comes to utility versus favoritism can be thought out. There is a way to do it, because WoW nowadays have that much better than the time of the example you mentioned. Yes, there is still a certain level of homogenization in WoW's class gameplay (far less than in XIV), but I think they managed to reach a point where this selectivity only happens in really cutting edge content, and even when it does, it's rarely just one single spec pick of the utility you need.

But for that to even be considered, the encounters in XIV got to potentially support a more distinct array of utilities.

Honestly, I don't see an issue if some jobs are better in certain high-end fights?

If PF locks out NIN, just go to the MB and buy a VPR weapon, I can see it being an issue in other MMOs where you're locked to one class on your character, but you can swap to any job in this game.

If you want to prog harder content where people are more likely to lock out jobs, sometimes you have to play jobs you may not like for a better prog experience, ask all the BLM mains who had to play RDM/SMN for prog.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

There is a way to do it, because WoW nowadays have that much better than the time of the example you mentioned.

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I am curious what those are, since I only played it during Dragon Flight.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Honestly, I don't see an issue if some jobs are better in certain high-end fights?

If PF locks out NIN, just go to the MB and buy a VPR weapon, I can see it being an issue in other MMOs where you're locked to one class on your character, but you can swap to any job in this game.

If you want to prog harder content where people are more likely to lock out jobs, sometimes you have to play jobs you may not like for a better prog experience, ask all the BLM mains who had to play RDM/SMN for prog.

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As long as different jobs get a chance to shine in subtle ways, I think the feeling of satisfaction from your job being the right tool for the job is worth it. And even when we’ve had cases of certain jobs being favored by a fight, like Astro in P3, that didn’t stop White Mages from getting parties and clearing. Sage/Scholar comps got the job done too

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

As long as different jobs get a chance to shine in subtle ways, I think the feeling of satisfaction from your job being the right tool for the job is worth it. And even when we’ve had cases of certain jobs being favored by a fight, like Astro in P3, that didn’t stop White Mages from getting parties and clearing. Sage/Scholar comps got the job done too

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Yeah, I agree and I think this is it. It should be doable on all jobs, but giving certain jobs their chance to shine in different fights (or simply have an easier time) would be great. It allows us to kind of choose our difficulty too, in a way.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Honestly, I don't see an issue if some jobs are better in certain high-end fights?

If PF locks out NIN, just go to the MB and buy a VPR weapon, I can see it being an issue in other MMOs where you're locked to one class on your character, but you can swap to any job in this game.

If you want to prog harder content where people are more likely to lock out jobs, sometimes you have to play jobs you may not like for a better prog experience, ask all the BLM mains who had to play RDM/SMN for prog.

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Most people don't want to do that. Especially if the alternative is a job they're either not familiar with or simply don't like. Case in point, you couldn't pay a friend of mine to play Machinist.

Forcing people to play another job also invites new problems. If they're not good at it, then they'll more likely to make mistakes or maybe not even care because "it's not my main." I'm an omni-tank, but I'll take you right now I'll play noticeably worse if forced onto Gunbreaker over any of the other three. While I might be willing to adapt, most people won't. Evident by the fact every single time a job has been locked out people complain.

Being willing to flex is more of a higher end expectations not something for a midcore or casual group be it static or PF. You won't see nearly as many BLMs playing RDM for prog in those groups. Regardless, this isn't a good comparison because a BLM switching to RDM for prog is expecting to go back. Having a fight where BLM is simply awful means they don't get to enjoy their preferred job in say, M8S. Ask every WHM back in Stormblood how much fun they had being asked to play AST. Heck, when I moderated in the recruitment discord back then one of the most common points of frustration was that or statics venting they couldn't get a Bard or Machinist to join their group because they didn't have a Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Most people don't want to do that. Especially if the alternative is a job they're either not familiar with or simply don't like. Case in point, you couldn't pay a friend of mine to play Machinist.

Forcing people to play another job also invites new problems. If they're not good at it, then they'll more likely to make mistakes or maybe not even care because "it's not my main." I'm an omni-tank, but I'll take you right now I'll play noticeably worse if forced onto Gunbreaker over any of the other three. While I might be willing to adapt, most people won't. Evident by the fact every single time a job has been locked out people complain.

Being willing to flex is more of a higher end expectations not something for a midcore or casual group be it static or PF. You won't see nearly as many BLMs playing RDM for prog in those groups. Regardless, this isn't a good comparison because a BLM switching to RDM for prog is expecting to go back. Having a fight where BLM is simply awful means they don't get to enjoy their preferred job in say, M8S. Ask every WHM back in Stormblood how much fun they had being asked to play AST. Heck, when I moderated in the recruitment discord back then one of the most common points of frustration was that or statics venting they couldn't get a Bard or Machinist to join their group because they didn't have a Dragoon.

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I also prefer to one-trick. I’m a massive snob for aesthetics and themes that I like, and I’ll admit that proudly. As I said, as long as the advantage is not game defining, I don’t care if there’s a job that’s better for a fight than mine. Ideally, every job has fights where they shine.

I have never been worried about another job getting something that mine doesn’t, because no job has ever truly been locked out of content. Not in HW. Not in SB. There will always be a meta. There’s nothing wrong with that. But FFXIV does not force you to play the meta to clear anything. Any exception to that rule has been the result of a mistake, not an intention.

I don’t want Expedient just because scholar has it. I don’t want damage buffs just because scholar and astrologian have them. I want my job to do its own thing, to play its own way, and to be rewarded for that sometimes. I want to see other healers get more unique utility that I don’t, and for my job to get something that makes it special.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Being willing to flex is more of a higher end expectations not something for a midcore or casual group be it static or PF. You won't see nearly as many BLMs playing RDM for prog in those groups. Regardless, this isn't a good comparison because a BLM switching to RDM for prog is expecting to go back. Having a fight where BLM is simply awful means they don't get to enjoy their preferred job in say, M8S. Ask every WHM back in Stormblood how much fun they had being asked to play AST. Heck, when I moderated in the recruitment discord back then one of the most common points of frustration was that or statics venting they couldn't get a Bard or Machinist to join their group because they didn't have a Dragoon.

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But isn't it a "higher end" problem ? midcore and casual are unlikely to "require" you to switch.
If a Job feels awful to play in some fights, it's another issue with fight design.

All jobs should of course be able to clear everything, but making the jobs very unique again means they will by definition have strengths and weaknesses and therefore perform better in some fights and worse in others. It's a package deal, there's no getting around it if you want the jobs to be un-homogenized.

My concern is a scenario where by some miracle SE delivers on this 8.0 job design rework and they're all fun and unique again, but then the community has a series of meltdowns about differences in DPS, "it's too hard," not having X ability from Y job so their job is "literally useless" etc etc until we're right back here again in short order. They seem to have stuck to their guns with the fight design despite some complaints so hopefully that's a good omen for the jobs.

Increase the amount of metrics in combat content tenfold. While people still love making tier lists and discuss the viability of jobs in pvp, there is a reason some top players like Brian will tell you that they're always reluctant to make definitive tier and meta lists because there is way too many metrics and comp configurations (and maps) for it to make a lot of sense. The more metrics there is, the more drawbacks, strengths and weaknesses will be drowned out by the amount of possibilities.

Back to the OP though, I do find interesting that Yoshida would say something like that. Where was he when they decided to completely change the jobs multiple times in the past? Nobody to tell us that for the people that like it the way it is, they shouldn't worry? There is only two explanations for why:
- He didn't think it would be a problem back then and learned from it.
- They actually knew people would have to worry when they butchered MCH, SMN, and every healer in ShB. Which means that if they're saying that players shouldn't worry today for 8.0, that incidentally the changes are going to be microscopic in comparison and the direction is going to remain the same.