How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Do you have any idea how much incoming damage you're asking for and how loathed it would make healers?

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Asking for the game's ultimate difficulty content to have healing requirements high enough so that that there isn't bandwidth for healers to get tired of spamming DPS spells doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If you disagree, then we disagree, and that's fine.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

As to your first point, that's literally what my post that you're replying to said.

For your second point, I feel like you have to be misunderstanding what's being said here; if you genuinely think that Ultimates requiring a threshold of healing at which healers don't have time to DPS would lead to not having the GCD rolling for 75% of the fight, you'll have to explain that one to me.

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As an example: the highest p12s phase 1 healing log has an HPS of over 18k and the other healer did legit nothing. 78% of that scholar's GCD are for damage spells. You seriously have no idea what you are asking for.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I honestly don't see the point of asking me this. The thread is titled "How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?". Given that context, policing the likelihood of the devs implementing every given solution seems superfluous.

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You are correct. It was a rhetoric question to show how your post that I replied to doesn't make sense to me because none of the changes and adjustment they've given to the role for as long as I played & learned have been anything to accommodate their supposed 'design goals'.

Even the arguably hardest encounters to heal such as O8S & DSR does not have that much of a healing uptime. Do people seriously want to bring that sort healing intensity (or higher) *everywhere* just to ensure healer gameplay wouldn't be boring (because according to devs, we aren't needed to DPS, so what else we should be doing when utilities are also being stripped away)? Is that what really people genuinely believe in? I'd like to ask those players to step back and ask themselves: do they even know how much HPS their chosen healers can output & how much outgoing damage is going to be required to fulfill this fantasized healing intensity? It gets even more convoluted when you start accounting things like 2nd healer's potential HPS in 8-man duties.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

As an example: the highest p12s phase 1 healing log has an HPS of over 18k and the other healer did legit nothing. 78% of that scholar's GCD are for damage spells. You seriously have no idea what you are asking for.

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With respect, I don't understand what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're saying that right now the content is too easy, and therefore content being designed harder would be bad. Which doesn't make sense to me, so I assume that's not what you're intending to say. So I will kindly request that if you have an argument to make that you fully explain it.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Even the arguably hardest encounters to heal such as O8S & DSR does not have that much of a healing uptime. Do people seriously want to bring that sort healing intensity (or higher) *everywhere* just to ensure healer gameplay wouldn't be boring?

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I should clarify that I in no way think that intensity of healing should be applied everywhere, just to the very highest end content. If healers in the very highest end content are bored from how much spare time they have to DPS, that's a problem that transparently goes against the devs' stated design goals.

Healers in less intense content should require less healing. There's plenty of room for a more nuanced discussion about what that would look like and how adequately it would solve the overall problem. But when it comes to the very peak of high end content, my opinion is that Yoshi-P's stated goal is a good one, and I'd like to see it realized.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, I don't understand what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're saying that right now the content is too easy, and therefore content being designed harder would be bad. Which doesn't make sense to me, so I assume that's not what you're intending to say. So I will kindly request that if you have an argument to make that you fully explain it.

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What savage/ultimate experience do you have?

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Originally Posted by JacobNewblood

WHM:
Give WHM seraph strike, Increases DMG but lowers healing for 15 seconds
Stock up on Blood Lilies

SCH:
more Dot focus, Spreading them, increasing their potency, have eating your faerie give you access to a new ability, where you gap close and increase the party's DMG around you in a 15 Yalm radius
Spells interact with DoTS

AST:
Give it more time manipulation abilities that increase DoT timer, or give them a wildfire like ability

SGE:
Have an ability to convert addersgall to addersting. Have every 3 addersgall/sting add to a gauge that unleashes an DMG ability.
Have Eurkrasia changes more spells, (Make phlema a ST heavier nuke, and such)

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Honestly to give AST something to do besides damage spam they just need to reintroduce the older card system with Royal Road and Lord and Lady. Yes their DPS kit is still bare minimum but the card game kept people occupied and interested.

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Originally Posted by Connor

While it definitely does seem to be true that Yoshi is aiming for a ‘more healing over dps’ style, I think it becomes much more confusing when you consider that healer dps technically is a requirement for everything savage+. Which naturally trickles down to lower level content (‘if you can max dps in savage you can max it in expert roulette’ etc), ultimately creating a scenario where ‘healers primarily use offensive actions’ in general content because they’re approaching it like it has savage level dps requirements.

Honestly though I don’t even know what the solution could be.

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The problem is this: The more time healers are required to spend actually healing, the less time they have to spend patching up people's mistakes. That's the fundamental trade-off. Time is not a fungible quantity.

Now, perhaps that's a fair trade off in Savage and Ultimates. (I'm not qualified to comment there.) But normal mode content, anything that NA/EU queues up for in Duty Finder? It's utterly unrealistic to expect few to no mistakes / perfect play at that level. This means either required healing cannot be tuned that high, or encounters need to be designed such that mistakes cannot be made -- the latter reminding me of early Final Fantasies, where the trash and boss are on the left side of the screen, and the party is on the right side of the screen.

Edit: Which is not to say that the current balance of required healing is fine. It is not. I do believe there is room for increasing healing requirements, even at the normal/Duty Finder level, via various mechanisms: bringing back crit autos and untelegraphed mini-cleaves, reducing the self-sustain of other jobs and roles, rebalancing where a healer's healing potency actually comes from (GCD vs. oGCD), etc.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The problem is this: The more time healers are required to spend actually healing, the less time they have to spend patching up people's mistakes. That's the fundamental trade-off. Time is not a fungible quantity.

Now, perhaps that's a fair trade off in Savage and Ultimates. (I'm not qualified to comment there.) But normal mode content, anything that NA/EU queues up for in Duty Finder? It's utterly unrealistic to expect few to no mistakes / perfect play at that level. This means either required healing cannot be tuned that high, or encounters need to be designed such that mistakes cannot be made -- the latter reminding me of early Final Fantasies, where the trash and boss are on the left side of the screen, and the party is on the right side of the screen.

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That definitely is true, especially in regards to ‘full-time’ healing style, I do think it’s worth considering the ways that pressure can be relieved as well though. Like, in a hypothetical scenario where the healing somehow goes crazy high, the tanks and dps can also use their support / mitigation / whatever to assist. I mean, stuff like Magic Barrier and Nature’s Minne isn’t exactly considered super helpful right now, so it’d at least make those skills we do have more valuable as well, on all roles. Naturally though reaching that ‘hypothetical’ situation would need like a rework of the entire battle system to be focused on survival/triage, but I think it can still apply realistically as well.

Higher healing requirements definitely do have a danger of making it so heals struggle to do anything other than heal. At the same time though, I feel like it’s worth considering that there are things non-healers can do to lighten that load. The pressure doesn’t necessarily need to be all on them, is what I’m trying to say. Though I’m aware that’d also cause balancing issues and specific party comps becoming required (i.e whoever has the best mitigation or whatever), or potentially create a ‘survival’ meta where every job has to have healing etc skills regardless of role or playstyle.

That’s not a defence of going for a ‘full healing but then dps and tank have to help’ design, of course. But relative to current content I think the devs shouldn’t worry so much about increasing healing requirements (reasonably), when they’ve given tanks/dps so many different ways to support them, so the pressure isn’t unfairly focused on them

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What savage/ultimate experience do you have?

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You looked, I looked, we both know the answer to that question