What if we designed other Tank's abilities like they were made for WAR?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Thats not going to change the damage types used in other content, Magic damage in something like a Deep Dungeon or Criterion add-phase is significantly more rare.

---

I honestly don't particularly care about Deep Dungeon imbalances. It's unique quirks made Paladin one of the best tanks simply because it had a true invuln and access to a GCD stun on floors where oGCDs were disabled, do we now need to add a Shield Bash equivalent to every tank to make it fair?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I honestly don't particularly care about Deep Dungeon imbalances. It's unique quirks made Paladin one of the best tanks simply because it had a true invuln and access to a GCD stun on floors where oGCDs were disabled, do we now need to add a Shield Bash equivalent to every tank to make it fair?

---

I mean, Dark knight doesn't do any piece of content better than the other tanks atm.What are Dark knights supposed to be good at?
Warrior does *everything* better. I mean, even if you look at magic damage mitigation. Due to the way diminishing returns work on mitigation, a Dark knight will only have about 8-10% more hp than warrior if both are hit by a magic tank buster. But that's ignoring the sheer amount of healing that Warrior still has available, whilst Dark knight is completely out of gas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I honestly don't particularly care about Deep Dungeon imbalances. It's unique quirks made Paladin one of the best tanks simply because it had a true invuln and access to a GCD stun on floors where oGCDs were disabled, do we now need to add a Shield Bash equivalent to every tank to make it fair?

---

Yeah I'm aware the community concensus on balancing is it should start and end at week 1 savage clears specifically, and all other forms of content should be discarded and pretend they don't exist.

I just think thats dumb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Yeah I'm aware the community concensus on balancing is it should start and end at week 1 savage clears specifically, and all other forms of content should be discarded and pretend they don't exist.

I just think thats dumb.

---

No, I just think that balancing for Deep Dungeons where every floor can potentially throw balance out of the window is dumb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

snip

---

The only issue I see with SiO and DM is that they pair too well. It's one of the reasons why a WAR with ToB and SiO and SCH with protraction and crit adlo with DT is borderline busted when it comes to mitigation. Flat mitigation only really see's value in instances were its constant dmg like HH. This game is designed with big burst dmg upfront and that needs to change.

I personally would have preferred if SiO was an aoe ToB but WAR in general should have just been increasing HP cds. BW/NF should have been a 15% HP (first 4 secs) dropping to 5% HP (last 4 secs) instead of a small shield and rampart effect. Leave the shields to DRK and introduce other shield cds similar to haima to complement DRK's cds themes.

I will always say, they need to consider splitting the tanks into eHP (WAR/DRK) and flat mit (PLD/GNB) tanks. They lean towards that type of cds and universal cds should be placed in the role actions list similar to how Provoke and Rampart are. Maybe add Vengeance to that list as well since all the other tanks seems to want it too. This will allow the devs to have some focus when it comes to designing for said jobs and what cds they will get instead of just giving everything to each job similar to what BW, HoC and HS are currently at with their wall of texts.

They can focus on their design and simplify the process, i.e.:

-WAR = High HP burst heals
-DRK = High Shields small heals/regens
-PLD = High Blocking burst heals
-GNB = High Parry small heals/regens

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

No, I just think that balancing for Deep Dungeons where every floor can potentially throw balance out of the window is dumb.

---

And thats why giving GNB and DRK raidwide mits that read "mit 10% damage" instead of "mit 10% magic damage" would break the game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

And thats why giving GNB and DRK raidwide mits that read "mit 10% damage" instead of "mit 10% magic damage" would break the game?

---

Did I ever say I'm against making them mitigate both damage types? No. But in the current fight design it would barely move the needle and unless you just happen to do nothing but P10S you would be right back here complaining about DM and HoL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which is partially a problem with Endwalker's fight design. We don't get back-to-back magical aoes where DM or HoL would get more value, instead we get 1 big aoe followed by 30+ seconds of nothing.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I honestly don't particularly care about Deep Dungeon imbalances. It's unique quirks made Paladin one of the best tanks simply because it had a true invuln and access to a GCD stun on floors where oGCDs were disabled, do we now need to add a Shield Bash equivalent to every tank to make it fair?

---

And thats why giving GNB and DRK raidwide mits that read "mit 10% damage" instead of "mit 10% magic damage" would break the game?

---

???

I'm still searching for any time where any part of Absurdity's comments said anything against Heart of Light and Dark Missionary being allowed to mitigate all damage.

Noting that 'they'd be balanced if only the incoming damage were higher' =/= 'their design should never change'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marxam

...

---

Every tank brings %DR at baseline in the form of Reprisal, which works on all damage types, so WAR always has that synergy with itself without the restriction of being 'magic damage only'.

The design question here is: what is the function of job-specific raidwide mitigation when Reprisal is up every 30 seconds? If these unique tools are designed to be paired up with the 'bigger hits' like Harrowing Hell, then every tank combination needs to be capable of providing an equally good answer to them. If they are designed to be more 'optional' and 'flavor-orientated', then you need the cooldowns to provide benefits that cannot be directly compared, like one tool providing more of a healing/shielding focus with another providing a movement speed boost or group knockback prevention.

The most basic change that needs to happen is that the damage type needs to be removed from Dark Missionary and HoL. You could redesign every fight in the game such that outgoing raid damage is magic only, but it's still an unnecessary disadvantage. SiO already has an eHP advantage at baseline when it comes to these actions, even when physical damage isn't present. After that, then they need to have a look at the auxillary effects, like the healing buffs added to SiO and DV to further buff them this expansion. Not every tank needs to provide the same amount of self-sustain, and I'm fine with that. But then give DRK and GNB unique 'flavor' benefits on their tools that WAR and PLD can't offer to offset the lack of healing, like movement speed buffs and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I mean, Dark knight doesn't do any piece of content better than the other tanks atm.What are Dark knights supposed to be good at?
Warrior does *everything* better. I mean, even if you look at magic damage mitigation. Due to the way diminishing returns work on mitigation, a Dark knight will only have about 8-10% more hp than warrior if both are hit by a magic tank buster. But that's ignoring the sheer amount of healing that Warrior still has available, whilst Dark knight is completely out of gas.

---

WAR doing everything better than DRK doesn't mean PLD does everything better than DRK.

I get it's easy to fall into the trap of "WAR does better than <my Job>", but it also happens to do things better than EVERY Tank Job right now. It's okay for PLD to do some things better and DRK to do some things better and GNB to do some things better. Not only okay, it's the ideal situation. It's a bad situation where only one is king of everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Yeah I'm aware the community concensus on balancing is it should start and end at week 1 savage clears specifically, and all other forms of content should be discarded and pretend they don't exist.

I just think thats dumb.

---

Agreed.

Too many of these discussions are only about level 90 content, mostly Savage raids, with a passing aside thrown at 4 man Expert roulettes (since WAR just absolutely dominates those)

EDIT: Note that I mean this in a very general sense. It tends to be a primary concern, often to the exclusion of other things.

For my part, I like Shield Bash. I wish they did a context combination thing to help with PLD's button bloat (e.g. "Requiescat gives one charge of "Improved Shield Bash", turning your next Shield Bash into Goring Blade") since neither button is used often (Goring once per min, Shield Bash only in DDs/Exploration Zones), so having them share a hotbar slot wouldn't be the most terrible thing ever. And PLD right now has 28 Job actions, 7 Role Actions, for a Total of 35, BEFORE counting Sprint, Limit Break (which when you need it, you need it NOW), and Potion. So effectively, PLD needs 38 hotbar spots for all its abilities, NEARLY 40, which is pretty insane.