Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

And ya know what? I don't blame him for his prejudice and contempt. There is a massive difference between real life bigotry [Which I stand against with every fiber of my being] and something in a video game where the man was legitimately correct when the prejudice began for him. He can see souls and could see these people were lesser than his own, and at the end of the day just wanted his friends back, something which even Alisae says she'd like as not do the same.

There is also the fact that they existed at the expense of his friends and loved ones. You can't tell me you wouldn't feel the same way in his shoes.

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The only think he was correct on is that Sundered souls have lower aetheric density. But the story also tells that really doesn't mean all that much... From Thordan more or less outplaying Lahabrea and effectively devouring his essence, to use defeating two other Unsundered Ascions and preventing the End of Days themselves... Something the Ancients couldn't even do..? I think the narrative pretty clearly states that his take is wrong. Alisae saying she'd do the same is also far less a commendation of what he was doing and more admittance to her own moral failings.

And while I can't say for certain I wouldn't do what he did, I can say that having lost people in my life, I wouldn't even take the life of a single person to bring them back, let alone fourteen.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

"My mass murderer didn't kill as many people as your mass murderer!"

We've truly reached ascended levels of conversation.

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If you took my take as justifying Venat's actions, that's certainly not the intent. I think what she did was wrong and if the game gave us another option, I'd surely have taken it. :p But killing one person, to literally prevent all life form ending, as opposed to killing fourteen people to bring that one back? Yeah, option one is probably the more ethical.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Correct, throwing around terms like "racial supremacist", whilst ignoring the fact that the sundered are the result of slicing and dicing his people for a utilitarian purpose (the effects of which are apparently denied as and when suits a narrative), which he was left completely in the dark about, and who now exist at the expense of his people, is more than a little strange, in my eyes.

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What would you call a person who thinks "his people" are superior and more worthy of life, by their very nature?

Noting once more you're divorcing the context as to why he holds to those beliefs - the sundered are the fractured remains of his people, after they were inexplicably (in his eyes) genocided and warped into something different, much shorter lived and in many ways, weaker. So no, I don't think the term "racial supremacist" is a good fit for this scenario. No idea what the quotation marks are for, and I note you're fixating on the sundered souls having lower aetheric density, and then failing to account for all the ways in which they differ to the ancients, including notably much lower lifespans and loss of their ability to use creation magicks and the full suite of Echo powers. More ability to interact with dynamis? Also more susceptible to being harmed by it. On another note, Lahabrea is specifically stated to be worn down and weakened due to over-exerting himself, and even so copious amount of aid is needed to survive the initial encounter with him, and also to deal with both Emet-Selch and Elidibus, who has take on primal aspects in how his power fluctuates. If you're such a Certifiably Good Person that you wouldn't regard your own species being degraded in that way as diminishing them? Whatever, good on you, put your gold medal on and frame your certificate on the wall. Words are cheap, is all I will say. One can argue these differences "should" not matter, but it's eminently clear to me why they might matter to a survivor of the genocide of that original species.

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to use defeating two other Unsundered Ascions and preventing the End of Days themselves...

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Which is nonsense. They don't do it themselves. They do it with plenty of aid, including from unsundered beings. These points have been re-treaded multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So it's a good thing we got that, then. This is the exact same details we got from and through Emet's perspective, it's just that we got it across about four or five different scenes in two expansions, plus a short story or two. The Nier collab is just getting compressed into a few flowery passages with no interruptions.

If you REALLY want to wring useful FFXIV lore we didn't have before out of this collab, then the most you'll actually get is the story of A-towa-cant in Thyrus' weapon story, which actually does have a few new pieces, as well as gathering details that actually aren't especially forthcoming in XIV itself.

You could also see that depiction of the End of Days and the Sundering and notice that it's basically the same as Venat's own flashback, which is useful in confirming that the two accounts do corroborate and validate each other as sources. Which for the most part is probably not needed, but it's a useful point for at least one person I can think of.

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Look, if you think the scenes are objective enough to account for an accurate reflection of what took place post-sundering? Fine. If not, as some seem to argue? Then that is precisely why I'd like a scene showing something that isn't just two characters' POV of it. My response was precisely to Spectre's point that how objective these scenes are is difficult to determine and so these interminable debates over whether this or that results from this character's "biases" etc. can be put to death. This story was meant to resolve a 10 year arc. We already know that Venat's flashback scene is not accurate to several of the other sources involved, and is in effect simply stylised. If where they've left it is good enough for you? Great. Fantastic. But I'd like more, whether you would or not, whether you agree or not. Capisce?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised the same person who couldn't see the Ancients held funerals before the WoL also can't see the difference between Venat's "flashback" and every other account we have of the sundering.

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

But killing one person, to literally prevent all life form ending, as opposed to killing fourteen people to bring that one back? Yeah, option one is probably the more ethical.

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You're assuming one person needed to be killed at all and they did not. Venat was driven by her beliefs/fears, not objective truth.

My, this thread escalated very quickly.

I think the main issue that players have with Shadowbringers Emet - which this collaboration story is really centred around - is that people on average don't see themselves as 'twisted, malformed creatures'. That's just a basic self-esteem thing. So if I'm roleplaying a character and am told 'Case in point - I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you,' my character would probably take issue with that. My response is not going to be 'Smashing reasoning, old chap! Lunch next Tuesday at the Ascian hideout after we eradicate myself and the rest of humanity?' And the collaboration story really doubles down on Emet's stubbornness and prejudice.

It's a tricky line to dance narratively between a portraying character who is kind-hearted and loves to party till dawn with their friends on some occasions and who fondly reminisces on slaughtering multiple parallel worlds full of people on others. I think the writing does an admirable job of making him both likeable yet twisted. I think the idea of Emet knowing exactly who Azem was all along while deliberately goading them into transforming into a monster makes him seem less sentimental and more ideological, though. Part of what made the events in Amaurot so poignant for me originally was the thought that he didn't realize his friend's identity until it was too late. But regardless of motivation, he needed to be stopped, which is presumably why you have to kill him yet again in this Vestiges of Paradise collaboration event.

Although I'd have to say, this back and forth is the sort of thing that would amuse Yoko Taro to no end. He'd probably actually write in an ending where Emet kills Azem off and welcomes them to the afterlife before Ra-la comes to bring them both the most beautiful of dreams.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

You're assuming one person needed to be killed at all and they did not. Venat was driven by her beliefs/fears, not objective truth.

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On the other hand, given that the first person did already die, the ethics of whether it should have happened are irrelevant to Emet's part of the dilemma, which is whether killing fourteen beings to restore one person to life is acceptable.

Suddenly, Shadow of the Colossus flashbacks – there's even a sundered god of darkness to be revived...

Well, we can keep going back and forth about this to no avail. I could point out the ethics of Venat being presented with the opportunity for a 'do over' and still choosing to go with genocide. My main interest in the NieR cutscenes was I was not aware the sundering was as bad as it was, so that was new information to me and managed to paint Venat in an even worse light which I didn't think was possible.

Not that it's particularly relevant to the conversation, but I also appreciated learning more about the "trio" even if it was only that they routinely reveled until dawn.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Not that it's particularly relevant to the conversation, but I also appreciated learning more about the "trio" even if it was only that they routinely reveled until dawn.

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That's really the biggest revelation here to be honest, pretty surprised to find out that Emet was a bit of a party animal back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

That's really the biggest revelation here to be honest, pretty surprised to find out that Emet was a bit of a party animal back in the day.

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Again, remember that the story is ultimately from his perspective. He's a party animal by his definition, and he's obviously an introvert. His idea of 'revel until dawn' is probably debating in the back of a 24-hour diner for eight hours. Which, hey, if it's what you love doing.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Again, remember that the story is ultimately from his perspective. He's a party animal by his definition, and he's obviously an introvert. His idea of 'revel until dawn' is probably debating in the back of a 24-hour diner for eight hours. Which, hey, if it's what you love doing.

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got a new headcanon lol. emet and azem sitting in an amaurot ihop debating volcanoes and grapes over sausages and pancakes.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

EDIT: And yeah, even if 'power and physicality' is reduced with sundering, intelligence very clearly isn't. If intelligence wasn't being sundered, then we wouldn't have seen sundered people outsmart all three unsundered. Pretty easily in all three cases, too. And I wouldn't exactly call Thordan the greatest mind of his generation.

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Not entirely sure where you’re getting this from tbh. Lahabrea wasn’t exactly outsmarted, he was powered down from body hopping so long, his mind was essentially gone and we had just fought him.Emet we needed all the light warden aether and rejoining with ardbert and even that probably wouldn’t have been enough had Emet not been “kind.” Ishikawa herself said it was his sentimentality and kindness that led to his downfall. Elidibus we needed the help of another unsundered and time travel. Without it we’d have been dead lol.