Critique of Endwalker Characters

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Stranger than Fiction was also a great movie when it spoke upon death and how impactful it is to the plot of a story.
This will always be my favourite quote:



Warning EW spoiler

When the scions "die" at the end of EW, it felt cheap. It was predictable what was going to happen. They're going to live, of course.
Had I the choice of writing, Alisae would have persihed in the crossing scenario of Garlemald.
Theancred would have perished and been the soul guiding essence on Ultima Thule.
Yshtola would have given her life to break Meteion's Ultimatum instead of Zenos.
As a result of these deaths, Estinien would have become tempered and become more loyal to protecting what the scions stand for. Perhaps even the new leader.
Alphinaud would become detatched and angry (which could lead to a personal questline where we are able to change his attitude or let him be)
The consequences of motions of deaths changes things that imo must be changed.

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There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Ramjet , now there's a character name I've not heard since the 80s

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I was actually enjoying and agreed with this post until your very last sentence starting from that but; because I never made any effort or attempt to deflect the criticism. I didn't even say the criticism was unreasonable. That is a twist off what I said. What I was implying is that there will always be people that dislike a main cast of characters and that no individual story driven plot will please everyone with it's characters.

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Yes, of course main characters will always be disliked. Just like stories will always be disliked. Or side characters. Or outfits. Or anything, really. Nothing will ever be liked be evreybody, not even cats.
The point of this topic was to discuss how and why many EW characters feel bland and boring to people so I'm genuinely curious what your point was when stating the obvious "nothing will ever please everyone" when this topic was never about pleasing everyone because that has nothing to do with them being main or side chaarcters.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Yes, of course main characters will always be disliked. Just like stories will always be disliked. Or side characters. Or outfits. Or anything, really. Nothing will ever be liked be evreybody, not even cats.
The point of this topic was to discuss how and why many EW characters feel bland and boring to people so I'm genuinely curious what your point was when stating the obvious "nothing will ever please everyone" when this topic was never about pleasing everyone because that has nothing to do with them being main or side chaarcters.

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Man way to be rude about it
I'm sorry my point went over your head

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I really don't mind the "fake deaths one after another" thing in Ultima. On the one hand, it's a story trope in itself, but more importantly it's a matter of putting yourself in the character's mindset.

It doesn't matter what you the viewer know about the likelihood of them all being revived in half an hour's time, because the characters don't know they're in a story. What matters is the grief and resolve your character must be feeling in that moment – no choice but to press on, no choice but to sacrifice themselves one after another on the small hopeful gamble that you will be able to reach Meteion and unravel it all, but also keenly aware that you might not.

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THIS

I've read tons of stories or watched shows or movies where it was patently obvious what was going to happen. But I was intrigued and interested by what the character experiences when it happens. And I was still left guessing on exactly how it would all go down.

If we couldn't appreciate things when we know what's going to happen, then we'd just be left with media that constantly tries to one up the last guy because everything would have to be unexpected and shocking and bigger and better. And writing quality would go into the gutter because the best of those sorts of unexpected events have those little nuggets of hint through the story that sometimes you don't catch until a second read/viewing.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

There is no universe in which Thancred shouldn't have died after his fight with Ramjet in ShB.

And the Exarch should have died after the 5.3 Trial.

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Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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Because their stories are over and yes, in a story where you're killing thousands of nameless enemies, to be taken seriously your side needs to take losses as well. If everyone is walking around with impenetrable plot armor we may as well play Disney Online because no matter how dire the situation there is zero tension.

But I know there is a contingent who thinks none of the characters they like should ever die and they try to setup reductionist gotcha arguments to support that, usually by asking disingenuous questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Stranger than Fiction was also a great movie when it spoke upon death and how impactful it is to the plot of a story.
This will always be my favourite quote:



Warning EW spoiler

When the scions "die" at the end of EW, it felt cheap. It was predictable what was going to happen. They're going to live, of course.
Had I the choice of writing, Alisae would have persihed in the crossing scenario of Garlemald.
Theancred would have perished and been the soul guiding essence on Ultima Thule.
Yshtola would have given her life to break Meteion's Ultimatum instead of Zenos.
As a result of these deaths, Estinien would have become tempered and become more loyal to protecting what the scions stand for. Perhaps even the new leader.
Alphinaud would become detatched and angry (which could lead to a personal questline where we are able to change his attitude or let him be)
The consequences of motions of deaths changes things that imo must be changed.

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See another take I disagree with is that the main cast had to die for the story to be interesting or impactful. Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed any of the deaths in that spoiler tag at all, and losing those characters in those ways more than likely would have tanked my own enjoyment of the story.

Death isn't the be all end all negative consequence and I don't think it's at all necessary to tell a good story. I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think Endwalker was spectacular or anything, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. But then I also don't mind a cheesy cliche if it's entertaining, and for me the UT story was.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why? Is it just because there had to be a death or it's not a serious story? I could see narrative reasons for either of those which could be stepping off points to different story points, but the reason I see given most often is that a story isn't serious enough if there's isn't a death.

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I don't agree with the general calls that someone should die for the sake of some arbitrary quota of meaningfulness, or because they've finished their story arc, but for those specific story events it absolutely would have been appropriate for those characters to die in those situations and it would have been a good story point.

For all that I like G'raha and it's nice that he's still with us, pre-5.3 he was so heavily waving the death flag that i was all steeled to bid him farewell and have a good cry over a well-earned death scene in a story with running themes of the impermanence of life... and then he didn't die, and I still have mixed feelings over that. From the characters' perspective, it's a happy thing that he survived; from a story theme perspective, I don't think it was really the best narrative outcome. (But he's here now, and he's a lovable dork, so no use fretting over it.)

Done right, at the right time (that being very sparingly, and not sacrificing regular cast members once per expansion), character death can be a really good thing and an ongoing rallying point for fans to remember the character fondly, and as an ongoing plot point in the story itself.

I agree that a portion of the fanbase might not take it well – I might not have once upon a time either, but I think that has changed with maturity, and perhaps it is experiencing more of those plots that teaches you to appreciate them. If the Exarch had died it would be sad but in a bittersweet way and he was, ultimately, an old man who had lived through a lot and seen all his lifelong goals come to fruition, and somehow the story needed to resolve the fact that he was immortal and that was made out to be an undesirable thing in the long term.

I've said before – I think he should have truly died there even if they still wanted us to wake young G'raha up afterwards. Make him a separate character and not a continuation of the Exarch. Pass along his memories, but not his soul.

I do think the writers are spooked by the thought that some of the fandom might be "sad" if characters die. I recall them implying in an interview that they had considered another ending for 5.3 but wanted to give us a happy one since the real world had been rather miserable of late with the pandemic and everything. Though oddly, contradictorily, the sadder ending might have been the more enjoyable one for me.

All that said, there aren't any points in Endwalker's narrative as it stands that feel like any one person should have rightfully died. I think for what was going on in Ultima it really has to be all of them or none of them surviving in the end, not just one somehow arbitrarily failing to reconstitute. Though instead we get Hades and Hyth at long last getting the voluntary "return to the star" that their race views as a good death at the end of achieving their goals.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

It's kinda funny that I start the game already liking the scions, and still was after ShB. In fact I was worried that something going to happen to them in EW. But after EW... I just can't care less about them. Though I still love thancred (yes, I'm bias lol). Out of everyone in the scions, thancred has lost the most and outright admit he's been suicidal. Imo he can become more like our version of emet; no-nonsense, willing to do anything, yet still has the charm.

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Yep, I'd say Thancred is probably the most tolerable one to me - his looks don't hurt, either. Followed by Estinien and sometimes Urianger and Y'shtola (mainly during SHB tbh... she at least made an effort to understand Emet-Selch.) But there's not one of them I'd be particularly sad to see die at this point... though that is with the caveat of whatever were to replace them being better.