The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

You have to be considerate!

I've been running DNC a lot lately instead of WHM and I see this all the time in Leveling Roulette. DPS and healers running ahead of the sprout tank who was Viewing Cutscene when we zoned in or Rescuing them into mobs. And when the topic comes up on forums like these or in XIV groups, it's always "I'm pulling for them cause THEY GONE LEARN TODAY".

When I run WHM, I let them pull to their comfort level and let them know I've got their back if they want to experiment. Some don't and that's fine. I just adjust to help dps more since I don't need to heal as much. And some do and I support them as they work things out. We may wipe a time or two but often they try again knowing what they need to adjust and then they get it. I don't believe in all this nonsense about forcing people out of their comfort zones just because of what someone *else* wants them to do. There are ways to encourage tanks or healers or dps without being an impolite jerk about it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is my problem with the general mindset of the forum tanking police. There's no bar indicating that people who small pull aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level; that's just some crap you all made up. Small pulling tanks clear the content moderately slower, but they clear it all the same. There's no requirement here; this isn't a company you own and the tanks you queue with aren't job applicants. Your made up rules and expectations don't matter.

I don't think large pulls are unreasonably difficult for tanks, or anything like that, but I do think that if you REALLY care that much you should either man up and tank yourself, or start a PF group where you get to make the rules. Otherwise when you queue with randoms you get what you get.

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Very true. In addition the most challenging thing tanks do before savage level is big pulls in leveling dungeons. When it comes to trials, bosses and raids you can't lose hate, you can easily survive without using a single cooldown and the vast majority of mechanics are aimed at anyone but the tank and even if they hit you you're the tank, you shrug them off, easily. The idea that if you don't like W2W pulling in one of the trickier dungeons you can't tank trials or raids is not even close to true. The easiest role in most of those fights is the tank.

Thing with tanks their core gameplay loop does not differ from two packs to 85 packs pop cooldowns avoid bad and aoe.

So in the end most the burden is on the healer so if the healer wants large pulls tank has no excuse to not try at the very least.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

I think the trouble lies within your thread title as it is over exaggerating on the problem. No one ever says it is "Mandatory". No one can't force you. Is it the norm in general? It is but for experienced players not new. But I've yet to see myself anyone tell someone new that W2W pulls are "Mandatory" and have to be done.

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Problem is that they do say it, without using words. They run ahead of the tank and pull more mobs. Or healers rescue them into more packs. They don't put their big kid pants on and try to communicate. They just try to force someone to do what they want them to do with rude behavior.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I don't expect sprouts to pull big in low-level dungeons. They're still learning the game. I try to offer advice, but if I wanted the dungeon tanked my way that badly, I'd queue as tank and do it myself.

By Stormblood dungeons, though, I expect players to know how much they can handle and go for it.

Except for Bardam's Mettle. That one's still fairly brutal.

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Pretty much this. By lvl 50 you have all the basic tools at your tank disposal to be doing big pulls, double pulls bare minimum.

You're actively hurting the group if you don't.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is my problem with the general mindset of the forum tanking police. There's no bar indicating that people who small pull aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level; that's just some crap you all made up. Small pulling tanks clear the content moderately slower, but they clear it all the same. There's no requirement here; this isn't a company you own and the tanks you queue with aren't job applicants. Your made up rules and expectations don't matter.

I don't think large pulls are unreasonably difficult for tanks, or anything like that, but I do think that if you REALLY care that much you should either man up and tank yourself, or start a PF group where you get to make the rules. Otherwise when you queue with randoms you get what you get.

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The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

Something else to keep in mind when doing very large pulls. Monsters don't stack on top of each other. Because of this it's possible when pulling large groups for some monsters to not get hit by the tank's AoE skills. It also can impact DPS output as some monsters have a footprint that is almost the size of most circular AoE. As such there are some situations where doing a large pull accomplishes little more than making the healer work a lot more and making the DPS dance around more to avoid all the monster AoEs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

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Aaaaaaaaaaand we're back to talking about expert roulette again, of the hundred or so dungeons in this game we insist on focusing on the easiest two and using them to benchmark. How hard can it be to understand the fundamental difference between content we out gear by 40 ilevels or more and leveling dungeons where players are minimum ilevel?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No. It's saying that most dungeons in this game are so easy you literally don't need a healer to complete them. Therefore, a group with a healer shouldn't have any problems. The solo exception to this are early ARR leveling dungeons and super pulls. I can appreciate a less experienced tank not wanting to pull literally everything in Mt. Gulg or even being slightly intimated by Holminster Switch's second pull. But anything less than two packs means you aren't ready to be tanking at a higher level and should practice either with lower level dungeons or Trusts until you get a feel for the damage and your CD management.

There is absolutely no excuse to small pull Expert, which are laughably easy.

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My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.