Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Can Y'shtola really see

tempering? Was this stated somewhere? She did not see that Emet-Selch was tempered.

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I think that

she may not have been aware she could before now. When she came out of the Lifestream, she never met with any of the Tempered. I believe she met with only the Vath who were not part of the hive mind and the Goblins (who were not tempered by Alexander), but never met the Vanu, and was out of commission for almost the entirety of SB so she never met with the Tempered Ananta. In fact, this may be her first time seeing Tempered in years.

Musing on the towers more...

I think I'd honestly love if it turns out that they're actually part of a gigantic super primal that embodies Garlemald's doctrine of conquest through power (Which would explain both how they seemingly appeared out of nowhere as well as their disturbingly organic interiors).

Such an entity would be more akin to a force of nature then a proper god as it would basically be a blank slate that's driven purely by its purpose for creation, bereft of the personality primals normally are given from their worshippers.

Perhaps Zodiark isn't even the ultimate goal of Zenos and Fandaniel anymore and he's simply a means to a greater (And worse) end; to be used as fuel for a new primal.

An interesting train of thought I had regarding Lunar Bahamut.

The title given to him at the end of Paglth'an is "Telotherium". Telo- is obviously the same root as the one in Telophoroi (Endbringers), meaning "End", and -therium being a suffix indicating an animal genus, but also having its roots in the Greek word thērion, meaning "a wild animal" or "beast". "Therion", aside from being one or more mythical beasts from the Book of Revelation, is also the name of the final boss from Amaurot. Chthonian Riddle - Therion.

I don't think there's any greater connection here, but I just found it neat that they went with a term that connects the two.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Can Y'shtola really see

tempering? Was this stated somewhere? She did not see that Emet-Selch was tempered.

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She can see overflows of a particular form of energy/element, given that she was able to "diagnose" the WoL/D's condition in SHB as they took on more Lightwarden aether. However, that was also partly because the MC was nearly bursting at the seams trying to contain all that aether, with Emet saying it would turn them into a sin eater. Bearing in mind that that form of corruption (as well as its Voidsent counterpart) primarily ties to bodily aether, whereas tempering is a mind/soul phenomenon 1) rendering the soul more umbral and 2) aligning to the Primal's energy/element. Tempering is therefore subtler and probably harder to distinguish, especially if, as a consequence of the Blessing, such an affinity to light is "expected". Bear in mind that the champions on the First, bearing the Blessing of Light, triggered the Flood through their deeds and the eventual defeat of Loghrif and Mitron, and it is an aspect of tempering that the goal is to spread the element/energy of the Primal, which Emet confirms in the French version of 5.0; the EN version for some reason sees it fit to gloss over this. Make of that what you will. My general comment on this is that it is best to stop assuming we have a fixed understanding of either Primals or tempering. We understand some things about them, but they are further elaborating on that knowledge as the story progresses. Even in regards to its severity or effects.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Main Scenario:

I'm glad, after so long, we're finally hearing more about Hydaelyn. I've been attached to Hydaelyn since 1.0. And not hearing from Hydaelyn feels like a gigantic elephant in the room that for some reason, no one was bringing up at all. I really want this to be a redemption arc of sorts of Hydaelyn after essentially being slandered by so many people during Shadowbringers at the revelation that she is a Primal. It really hurt when the news happened, it was a little heartbreaking for me. She's been such a supportive figure since the earliest. A comfort. And I really miss her. Say what you may about the shortcomings of A Ream Reborn. But they established our home, Eorzea, the leaders of the Grand Companies, and Hydaelyn as a supportive Motherland and home. Whether the prone to cheer and laughter, yet greatly troubled and exploited Nanamo, the stern and pragmatic, perhaps even harsh, yet reliable and strong Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn, or the serene and pure Kan-E Senna. To the Goddess we are introduced to at the earliest of Final Fantasy XIV's outset, to Minfilia, leader of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn.

Eorzea was not wanting for any kind of maternal comfort. Which is a thing of personal taste, but something I personally really liked, and made me feel comfortable in Eorzea in 1.0 and A Realm Reborn. We already lost one of them in Minfilia. I personally don't want to lose another. It's already felt much lonelier without her on our journey. What felt like a backbone of support has been shaken and shaded. I'd rather her return be a triumphant one, and her character played "straight" and earnestly, and not the trope of betrayal and "your closest ally was your enemy all along". Hydaelyn has been a face of comfort from the beginning, and it's been sad enough to see her gone for so long, only to learn that she's the thing we've been fighting all along, a Primal.

This has personally been the highlight of the Patch MSQ for me so far. As she's been strangely absent for far too long. And it's nice and long overdue for characters to be addressing what has been for long a very very important figure. "The silence is deafening", as they say.

I'm still on edge and worried, as there's been a lot of bad news, so far. And she hasn't returned to voice the theme of Endwalker. Not yet, at least.

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Ah yeah i have to agree.

I'm really happy they're finally touching on Hydaelyn and questioning her finally, took the scions long enough to question her. After what we learned in ShB she is very shady and it's going to be interesting what we find out. Not going to be surprised if it turns out shes been a malevolent force this entire time and has just been using us but we'll see. Nice to see the edge being taken off of "Zodiark is evil" and that attention is finally being put towards Hydaelyn who's been eerily quiet.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Can Y'shtola really see

tempering? Was this stated somewhere? She did not see that Emet-Selch was tempered.

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About Ysthola and tempering

She is able to see aether and thus able to see how the Light changes us even before we reach a point where we notice it too. Ryne is then later telling how our soul is not shattering anymore, so I guess Ryne can see the soul much better.

In Owens scenes its shown that the soul changes color (or maybe that was just his way to make it clear) so she should notice that something is different with echo users or WoLs because I really doubt the rest of the aether remains completely untouched.

Also if we are tempered by her why do we not say anything in her defense? Why would other WoLs be able to go completely against her or in the case of the 13th be changed by the primals and turned into a monster?

At least I have watched an english stream today and its a bit less strict there. They dont really talk about the possibilty of us falling out of her graze, it sounded more that they are going into the direction that something might be keeping her from communicating with us. Only Ysthola is a bit more skeptic. For me it makes it feel a bit less negative and more interested in what is going on.

@Lauront:

I watched the Eden cutscenes again and it was bascially Mitron who has turned into Eden that released the Light thus creating the Flood. According to him the first became really imbalanced thanks to the flood of darkness on the 13th world and would now lean more towards the Light. The Ascian basically kept the light in check and it was Emets plan to use that to bring in another rejoining. They made Ardbert and his group so strong. They gave them the enemies that would create their crystals. They did just not think about the possibility that Ardbert would not raise his axe towards a former friend and instead killed the ones behind it. And when Ardbert attacked Mitrons soul with the blade of light he bascially turned into Eden and now mindlessly released all the light that was already in him (which kinda implies imo that they took in the Light to keep it balanced) thus causing the flood.

Ardbert and his group did not spread the light thanks to being forced through the blessing. They were just unlucky that defeating the true enemy turned him into a sin eater with no mind of its own. It was fully on the Ascians to create the plan of bringing the First even more towards the brink of a flood of light after they have caused the imbalance thanks to their actions on the 13th.

So I am not sure if we can see that as a hint that through the will of the blessing they kinda wanted to spread the light.

But I agree we dont know everything about tempering and I am looking forward on what they will find.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Ah yeah i have to agree.

I'm really happy they're finally touching on Hydaelyn and questioning her finally, took the scions long enough to question her. After what we learned in ShB she is very shady and it's going to be interesting what we find out. Not going to be surprised if it turns out shes been a malevolent force this entire time and has just been using us but we'll see. Nice to see the edge being taken off of "Zodiark is evil" and that attention is finally being put towards Hydaelyn who's been eerily quiet.

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I'm of a different mindset. Spoilers to a lot of the game's optional content below.

Hydaelyn is not evil. I'm of the theory that the crystal itself is a giant auracite crystal. Why? Because the Crystal Tower itself is made entirely of auracite, and has the same glow as her own crystal. This would explain why she hasn't been gaining power and has just been losing it. Just like with any auracite, there's a finite amount of power in it, and she has been expending it over the many Calamities, and it slowly being eaten over them as well via primal summonings. She hasn't spoken to us because of the constant primal summonings for the attempts at the 8th Calamity, she's been trying to conserve power as much as possible. Just think about it, Sephirot (Elder), Sophia (Elder), Zurvan (Elder), Bahamut (Elder), Phoenix (Elder), Alexander (Elder), Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, King Mog, Leviathan, Odin, Ravana, Bismarck, Knights of the Round, Susanoo, Lakshmi, Shinryu, Eureka (Elder), and finally Tsukuyomi. This run to the 8th Calamity alone has had so many primal summonings that she's being completely drained of her own power, and that's being added onto the Flood of Light and Eden. She's working on fumes at this point.

Which means us meeting with her probably in Patch 5.55 is the sign that this is indeed the end of the line, she probably is out of options at this point and can only push us forward one last time to where we need to go.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

@Lauront:

I watched the Eden cutscenes again and it was bascially Mitron who has turned into Eden that released the Light thus creating the Flood. According to him the first became really imbalanced thanks to the flood of darkness on the 13th world and would now lean more towards the Light. The Ascian basically kept the light in check and it was Emets plan to use that to bring in another rejoining. They made Ardbert and his group so strong. They gave them the enemies that would create their crystals. They did just not think about the possibility that Ardbert would not raise his axe towards a former friend and instead killed the ones behind it. And when Ardbert attacked Mitrons soul with the blade of light he bascially turned into Eden and now mindlessly released all the light that was already in him (which kinda implies imo that they took in the Light to keep it balanced) thus causing the flood.

Ardbert and his group did not spread the light thanks to being forced through the blessing. They were just unlucky that defeating the true enemy turned him into a sin eater with no mind of its own. It was fully on the Ascians to create the plan of bringing the First even more towards the brink of a flood of light after they have caused the imbalance thanks to their actions on the 13th.

So I am not sure if we can see that as a hint that through the will of the blessing they kinda wanted to spread the light.

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Yes, but I am not saying that the intention was to cause a flood or that it was the will of the blessing - although there remain many questions around all that. My point is that it was the medium required for the Ascians' plan to work as it did, and enable the naive champions to spread the light, and it is that spread of the energy (light) which I am talking about.

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Cyella
Like you, I am not of this world. I crossed the rift and came to the First.
My home, the Thirteenth, fell to Dark in a calamity that mirrored the one which nearly claimed this world. I was one of several “heroes” who failed to save it.

The boy, Unukalhai─I have glimpsed him in your memories. He was a friend. Like him, I heeded the words of the Ascians and, that I might redress the balance, I chose to come here and hasten a rejoining of worlds.

In our despair, we heeded the words of the Ascians who came unto us. Thus did I choose to come here and, that I might redress the balance, hasten a rejoining of worlds.

A shard subsumed by Dark demands a mirror of blinding Light. Primordial forces will strive to achieve equilibrium. But there was a solution─a single solution, I believed.

Were a Flood of Light to consume this shard in its entirety, it would be of no use. The Ascians made it clear it must be brought to the brink, but no further.

The task was difficult, but the plan simple. Souls predisposed to Light, fledgling heroes in the making. I would bring together Ardbert and his comrades and groom them for a higher purpose.

I would play the part of comrade and guide their course, all the while laboring in secret to pit stronger and stronger enemies against them, until finally, once they were Warriors of Light brave and true, I would reveal myself as a Warrior of Darkness and extinguish their radiance forever.

Thus would this world be primed for a Rejoining, and the Source for a calamity.

The Ascians who called themselves Mitron and Loghrif were confident it would succeed. And indeed, Ardbert and the others rose to the occasion, as I knew they would...

It was not to be. I had misjudged Ardbert. His comrades before him had made their sacrifices in turn, and as their mirror I had grown stronger for it. Had he but embraced his role and struck me down, victory would have been mine...

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The point here is that through gaining these Blessings, they become the harbingers of light required for their plan to work. The Blessing, even if it is not a form of tempering, certainly functions similarly in line with it in that singular respect: expanding the primal's element/energy.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Ah yeah i have to agree.

I'm really happy they're finally touching on Hydaelyn and questioning her finally, took the scions long enough to question her. After what we learned in ShB she is very shady and it's going to be interesting what we find out. Not going to be surprised if it turns out shes been a malevolent force this entire time and has just been using us but we'll see. Nice to see the edge being taken off of "Zodiark is evil" and that attention is finally being put towards Hydaelyn who's been eerily quiet.

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I for one, haven't ever considered her very shady. And I'll be extremely disappointed if she turns out to be a malevolent force. More than a little heartbroken.

I don't need to spoiler this, do I? I'm not referencing a particular character outside of spoiler tags by name.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I for one, haven't ever considered her very shady. And I'll be extremely disappointed if she turns out to be a malevolent force. More than a little heartbroken.

I don't need to spoiler this, do I? I'm not referencing a particular character outside of spoiler tags by name.

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hmmm, id have to partially disagree.

What we learned in 5.2 about her being on auto-pilot is very fishy, but beyond that theres been telling signs. From the heavensward art that portrayed Minfilia as chained to Hydaelyn to Ardbert questioning if he was tempered/if she was able to temper but all of a sudden just dropping the sbject. Now i dont think its 100% Hydaelyn, she is but a primal. A lot of the fault lies in Venat(her heart). However, i dont think something that was able to cause such a destructive act like the Sundering is very good.