Emet-Selch *Major Spoilers*

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Originally Posted by Edax

At least the WoL ends up in the cutscenes. At least people talk to the WoL in cutscenes and holds some importance to the story, that's more than the player character gets in WoW, whose more of a background extra while the NPCs take center stage.

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Yes the NPCs talk to you and the WoL listens then nods and does as he/she is told. On the other hand if you need to think or come up with a solution to a problem the WoL just stands there quietly and waits for someone better/more intelligent to do it for him/her.
The WoL is in the cutscenes as decoration to make it seem you matter when you actually don't. While it's true that many things in the world of FF requires killing, any mook who is "chosen" could do it just as well and considering you always need help, the WoL sucks at the only thing he/she is supposed to be good at. I mean in HW and with Emet-Selch you were so weak you needed a corpse to rise from their grave to help you and you still couldn't do it alone.
And all the "importance" you hear NPCs say is them all kissing you ass like any japanese mindless "chosen hero" story. Or any and EVERY "chosen hero" story that has ever been recycled.
I admit that i DESPISE this "chosen/destined/fated hero" garbage SO. MUCH.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Could they go the route of us being tempered? Of course they could. Does it make sense with everything we know right now? No not really. We already have WoLs of the past that outright betrayed Hydealyn. We had Ardbert who raised his axe against the word of the mother and we have Hydealyns view through the song of answers. If she is tempering us then our tempering is really quite similiar to free will.

Also lets not forget that the Ascians are 100% tempered. ;)

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This is how I see it too. As of now to me it doesn't seem like our actions are controlled by Hydealyn, still feels more like a "blessing".
Also Midgarsormr sealed away our blessing/echo once (which in theory coud mean that we were "freed" from Hydaelyn at that point if we were actually tempered.) but nothing really changed on the WoL. (like something in our mind or "something" that would imply we are influenced)
I also still believe that the artificial echo, created by the Garleans (Zenos) will play a big part at a later time when it comes to taking care of Zodiark & Hydealyn themselves.

I hit the quest wall for level 80 last night, so I probably won't be able to kill Emet until later tonight. Though, his death doesn't quite make sense to me, because he's too smart to get himself killed by WoL in the First.

During the whole cut scene after Vauthry's death, Emet being the way he is, I didn't really feel he was angry or that disappointed at me. I actually felt he was using some reverse psychology to motivate me not turning into a sin eater. Then, he was pretty confident that I'd make through and be able to see him in the tempest. To make sure that I'd go, he took the Exarch as hostage. The last few words he said to me before he left, "There is no hope! We are finished! Mankind is finished!" are the exact same words I saw in Exarch's memory. Emet possess the echo too, so he probably had seen it before he shot down the Exarch.

There is obviously something he wants from the WoL. Is it worth risking his life for? I don't think so. Like he said before, whatever happens, the worst case scenario is to delay his plan a little. He's immortal and WoL is going to die one day (unless WoL becomes immortal too). He always has time to start over again. I think he's plotting something big. Even I kill him now, how can I be sure that is 100% of him, not just a fraction?

EDIT: I see how he got himself killed now, by his own arrogance and carelessness. He didn't challenge WoL, but WoL got really mad at him and challenged him. Obviously, he didn't expect Exarch to summon a 8-man group to raid him either. Hopefully he kept a backup of himself somewhere. I don't think that Emet can't be redeemed. He's too absorbed in his view of the "perfect" world in his memory, which wasn't even true. He'd need help to change his view to accept and respect the world as it is, not flawless but actually better, in my opinion, than his old world. It would take time to convert him though, maybe in a novel, not in a video game.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

If he went back to before Zodiarc was created, and managed to prevent the destruction we saw at the end of days in the Amourot dungeon, then I'd have been more sympathetic to him. But that's not his plan, so I have a hard time seeing him as anything other than a murderer.

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Likely his interest in the Exarch and the Crystal Tower was to see if he could go even farther back in time and change some of the events before the Sundering to prevent it from happening.

But he was still tempered. He wouldn't have gone back before Zodiark's creation because that could have disrupted Zodiark's existence. He would have gone back just far enough to interfere with Hydaelyn's summoning. If successful, most (perhaps all) of the fragmented souls in the current Sundered universe would still exist but they would be different from what they are now.

Would it be okay for you as long as you existed but were a totally different being from who you currently are? If so, does that make us wrong to have killed Emet-Selch when he might have prevented the Sundering given access to the Tower's knowledge and power?

As for being a murderer... do you think of yourself as a murderer when you step on a bug on a sidewalk and crush it to death because it might spread disease? That bug's life might have meant something to it even if it meant nothing to you.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Now Zenos however... I just cannot care for him as a villain at all.

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You know i have always wondered, what peoples problem with Zenos is? He is the only true villain that the japanese writers allow to enter their stories. because other wise it is the same crap as always, which is of course the beautiful person with a sob story. beautiful, because otherwise no one cares, sob story because it's a convenient excuse when every masturbator goes crazy for them (this is more a description for Yotsuyu).
I mean like the OP says "Complex, interesting" Hah! What is complex in "Boohoo someone died Boohoo is the reason i'll kill you all Boohoo turned me evil Boohoo die Bohoohoo". How is that more "complex" than "i kill/fight because: fun/leads to my goal/ i can"?
I would rather have a villain who knows who they are and knows what they want without excuses or reasons and especially no sob stories.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

Yes the NPCs talk to you and the WoL listens then nods and does as he/she is told. On the other hand if you need to think or come up with a solution to a problem the WoL just stands there quietly and waits for someone better/more intelligent to do it for him/her.
The WoL is in the cutscenes as decoration to make it seem you matter when you actually don't. While it's true that many things in the world of FF requires killing, any mook who is "chosen" could do it just as well and considering you always need help, the WoL sucks at the only thing he/she is supposed to be good at. I mean in HW and with Emet-Selch you were so weak you needed a corpse to rise from their grave to help you and you still couldn't do it alone.
And all the "importance" you hear NPCs say is them all kissing you ass like any japanese mindless "chosen hero" story. Or any and EVERY "chosen hero" story that has ever been recycled.
I admit that i DESPISE this "chosen/destined/fated hero" garbage SO. MUCH.

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Your complaining how you hate "chosen one" stories while also complaining that the Warrior of Light doesn't matter and about how weak they are. Can you pick a consistent side in this arguement? Do you hate that the Warrior of Light is too important or not enough important enough?

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

G'raha's plan is to save the doomed future, and by extension, preventing untold amounts of death, destruction, damage, etc in the future ... snip ...

I think WW2 probably has one of the best examples of what fundamentally separates G'raha and Emet. The USA had two options in dealing with Japan: Either drop the A-bombs vs invading Japan proper ... snip .... G'raha would drop the bombs, where Emet would invade it proper.

They're on extreme differences of the moral compass. G'raha's desire to save life vs Emet's desire to destroy all life and cause untold suffering ... snip ... Morality at the end of the day is what fundamentally separates them. One that wants the good of the future and to lessen death suffering & destruction for the infinitely larger majority vs the other that wants to create untold amounts of death, suffering, damage all for the purpose of saving the minority.

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The amount of doublespeak you're engaging in here is really quite disturbing.

Let me make my own position clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't have killed Emet Selch. Given the parameters of the story, we had no choice. But it is nonsense to argue that G'raha is a good guy, he does exactly the same thing as Emet Selch; he destroys entire world/s to save the people in the past who are already dead and gone.

You're engaging in semantics by saying G'raha wants to save life and Emet destroy it. Or you didn't actually pay attention to what was happening in the story. G'raha travelled back through time to prevent the 8th Calamity from happening and in doing so, wiped out everything and everyone in the future. He did so 'knowing' that would happen - he expected to cease to exist if it did happen - which demonstrates he knew the consequences of what he was doing very well. Emet Selch is taking actions to rejoin the shattered pieces of the Source and Shards in order to restore Zodiark and have Zodiark restore the original people of Amaurot. He knows that means the destruction of life on the Shards but considers it worth the sacrifice.

BOTH MEN BELIEVE THE PEOPLE IN THE PAST ARE WORTH SAVING AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE PRESENT.

I suppose you might argue that Emet causes more direct mayhem than G'raha, but it is never suggested he takes pleasure in it. And excusing G'raha on that basis is like saying it's okay to bomb people from a distance because you don't look them in the eye while you do it. More to the point, your parallel with World War 2 is based entirely on subjective opinion. Where is it demonstrated in game that Emet Selch deliberate chose the path of most destruction? On the contrary, it's very much implied that if he could get his hands on the Crystal Tower, he would go back through time himself and ensure the Terminus event never happened or, at the very least, that Hydaelyn never did. He's not a psychopath, he's doing what he thinks he has to to restore his people, friends, family. Exactly like G'raha

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Would it be okay for you as long as you existed but were a totally different being from who you currently are? If so, does that make us wrong to have killed Emet-Selch when he might have prevented the Sundering given access to the Tower's knowledge and power?

As for being a murderer... do you think of yourself as a murderer when you step on a bug on a sidewalk and crush it to death because it might spread disease? That bug's life might have meant something to it even if it meant nothing to you.

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Zodiark was demanding human sacrifice at an ever increasing scale, so if his plan was only to go back so far as to prevent the creation of that power that kept the primal in check, then no. I don't support that as a right move. Simply preventing the sundering isn't enough if the new god was going to demand that innocents give up their lives.

As for the bugs... that sounds a lot like the rationalization that Emmet Selch used to justify murder. There's a pretty big difference here, though. Emmet Selch can have intelligent conversation with those he attempts to kill, he just views them as a lesser race to himself. So this is more in the vein of eugenics than extermination of pests, at least in my view.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

BOTH MEN BELIEVE THE PEOPLE IN THE PAST ARE WORTH SAVING AT THE EXPENSE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE PRESENT.

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There's a major difference here. The ascians believe in killing as many millions of people as it takes in order to recreate the past in the present. Graha Tia believes its better to go to the past and create a new timeline for the people in the future. He is not killing anyone in his present. Whether his plan will actually make a better future can be debated, but the fact is one is actively killing existing lives and the other is trying to change the destiny of the lives yet to be born.

Because he was still a jackass.

Someone being "written well" does not mean they deserve plot armor.

Tbh I think the only real difference between what G'raha & co. did vs what the Ascians did is how they view the lives they're saving and destroying.

The Ascians think them and only them are whole and legitimate lifeforms, and then and only them should survive as stewards of their star. Everything alive now is a pale imitation unworthy of consideration, and for Emet, a series of disappointments. I'm a little iffy as well on whether their plans involve saving all of the Ancients, or only the followers of Zodiark - the ones who shared their philosophy. Otherwise they'd just end up in the same situation, no? Because even their own people didn't agree with their original goal, which included sacrificing current life on their own star to bring back those who'd died. What's interesting to me is that their plan STARTED with genocide to revive those lost, even when their world WAS whole - sacrificing life for life, perhaps with the same reasoning. The Ancients sacrificed were more valuable than the new life that had been born in the wake of the cataclysm.

G'raha & co made fundamentally the same choice... it's a matter of sacrificing the present to alter the past for the sake of the future VS sacrificing the present to restore the past for the sake of those lost in the past. Thinking about it maybe the only slight nuance is that the Ironworks folks were seeking to change their own world and not someone else's. The Ascians see a broken imitation of their world, and the Ironworks folks & G'raha were stuck in a doomed one. I'm not sure if G'raha knew it, but there's also the fact that if the past wasn't changed, the Ascians very likely would have eventually succeeded in their goal and everyone in that alternate world would be doomed to die anyway - because realistically, who but the half-rejoined WoL from the source is going to be able to stop them? Several whole worlds have already failed, and it took our interference to stop yet another from failing (again). No impact on morality if G'raha & co. didn't know that going in (genuinely don't remember) but it does make for some interesting thinking material :P