Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for the Xaela, I was rather disappointed to see that the Scions held their proud traditions in such contempt. They were manipulated not only to get them to join the war effort but also in order to gain access to the Allagan device located within the Steppes. I consider the former situation to be much worse than the latter, though.

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Honestly, it didnt take a lot of manipulation to get the people of the steppes to fight. If any manipulation was used at all. They all are a Proud Warrior Race, and even then the Mol are too just weaker than the rest of the tribes. If we, (the WoL) have been manipulating them, the we would have had to do a a lot more than just win their Nadaam. They themselves have pretty much shown that most of them are willing to fight at the drop of a hat. (*looks at both Magnai and Sadu as the main culprits*) Also while yes we did do it (it meaning that we won and became the Khagan) we leave the general ruling to the actual Mol Clan. (Which was all part of Hien's plan to help them out due to Cirina saving his life.) Also we didnt manipulate them to use that Allagan device either, we had to go and ask the main clans for permission to use it... that turned into a rematch between us and Sadu with Magnai interrupting us and then getting the greatest burn in all of history from Y'shtola.

Ohh yeah also one thing else we didnt tell the Mol to fight in the Nadaam either... Old lady Mol had a vision that they were to fight in it that year.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Honestly, it didnt take a lot of manipulation to get the people of the steppes to fight. If any manipulation was used at all. They all are a Proud Warrior Race, and even then the Mol are too just weaker than the rest of the tribes. If we, (the WoL) have been manipulating them, the we would have had to do a a lot more than just win their Nadaam. They themselves have pretty much shown that most of them are willing to fight at the drop of a hat. (*looks at both Magnai and Sadu as the main culprits*) Also while yes we did do it we leave the general ruling to the actual Mol Clan. (Which was all part of Hien's plan to help them out due to Cirina saving his life.) Also we didnt manipulate them to use that Allagan device either, we had to go and ask the main clans for permission to use it... that turned into a rematch between us and Sadu with Magnai interrupting us and then getting the greatest burn in all of history from Y'shtola.

Ohh yeah also one thing else we didnt tell the Mol to fight in the Nadaam either... Old lady Mol had a vision that they were to fight in it that year.

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True, but they didn't have a reason to fight the Garleans either (yet). If you twist it around a bit, we've basically found and utilized a legal loophole in their... electoral system? To get them involved in a war, they did not care about. Sure, they are conveniently a warlike race, and they didn't much care about how we've used the fine print of the Nadaam to insert oureslves in the decision making process, but the base morals are still somewhat questionable behind... Hiens plan? I think it was Hiens plan. Who only has to gain from such an outcome.

Somethimes I wonder if these small moral idiosyncracies left in the story are intentional for the underlying commentary of "we're not so different from the villains", or just brushed aside by the writers as justified since it was us, and it turned out fine.

It was Hiens plan not ours his plan was to place the Mol in charge due to them saving his life. He was going to do it weither his people rose up in defiance of Garlemald or not. He was the one who decided that he would ask them to join the cause after he found out that the domans were ready to rise in resistance.

Few things about the Xeala tribes, apart from Cerina of the Mol, the Orionir, the Dotharl and the men only tribe (name escapes me sorry) did we see any other tribe participate in the reclamation of Doma?

If not couldn't that mean all tribes had a choice whether to actually join or not since it wasn't their fight. I mean this was the Mol's 1st Nardeem in recent times which suggests Nardeem participation is not mandatory.

The mol were going to do the Nardeem this year because the gods willed them to through granny Mol, Hein was going to offer his head had the citizens fully given up and that was due to Yugiri not us that sparked that.

It was Hein who asked the Xeala to go to war and we just gave a single sentence to attack Gywnwalt who had just attacked the steppes trying to kill us.

We had a bigger influence over the Confederacy than the Xeala and even that was Alisae's bargin not our own.

The scions and the alliance use us more for influence than Hydelyn does and only 3 of them had echo that we interacted with and did things for in the story. Any other time we were used by people it was man's own desire to do so. If Hydelyn is moving things however indirectly then she would be classed as a neglectful mother at best. Hydelyn has been proven to be nothing like the Ocuria and even they let things stew for awhile (time difference between dynast-king and ashe story).

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Originally Posted by Rannie

It was Hiens plan not ours his plan was to place the Mol in charge due to them saving his life. He was going to do it weither his people rose up in defiance of Garlemald or not. He was the one who decided that he would ask them to join the cause after he found out that the domans were ready to rise in resistance.

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My memory is rather foggy, but as I recall:

-the Mol had no intention, nor capability to participate in the Nadaam (before we came)
-we we're very clear from the start about our intentions to draw them into the war, even before the Nadam

If so, breaking it down without context: we've helped a faction of a foreign alliance of tribes into power, that had no intention, nor capability to take power on its own. Won the Nadaam single handedly for them, and then made a singular request of them - that they knew before comming into power - which they then chose to honor. But it is fine, because we're good guys, and had personal motivation to help them anyways.

Tell me it doesn't sound fishy, when putting it that way.

Anyways, I do not doubt the intention behind the ark, just the intentionallity of the writing. This doubt could've been easily circumvented, if the Xaela openly challenged us to take part in the Nadaam (with proper tribe representation) to force our agenda if we wanted to. From then on it could've played out basically as it did.

We went out to seek Hien to inform him of his people's willingness to rise up against the Empire. Hien planned to use the Xaela (again not us) to help him fight to reclaim Doma (again still on the contingency on if his people wanted to rise up against their imperial masters or not because he didnt want anymore deaths of his people) as well as repay his debt to the Mol for saving his life. We only decided to aid him in the endeavor. Btw this is all also on the EE volume 2 as well as the cutscenes leading up to and after the Nadaam.

Edit: I say planned to use them but the exact terminology used is to bid them to help. Now given the definition of bidding someone to do something he was trying to gain their help not force it.

Edit 2: and honestly for me (and in my own opinion) I got the feeling that while the warrior of light didnt mind fighting he/she was more thinking along the lines of "really I have to deal with this shit too?!?!?! Cant we just drag Hien by the top knot to the house of the fierce and get this shit over with?!?!?"

Also without context: An intelligent, charismatic leader gathered a band of refugee's and through tenacity, courage, and pure technological know-how found a nation in one of the most inhospitable climes. They then brought this technology to other parts of the realm. Doesn't that just sound so damn heroic you want to cry? But because they're the "bad guys" it's a bad thing.

That's how no context concepts work, anything can be twisted to ones own ends without context. You have a bias against Hydaelyn's actions, therefore you are going to cast any action taken by anyone associated with her to be somehow twisted into villainy.

I agree, the distinction is important, and I forgot we we're talking about the WoL, not "team good guys in general". I guess I flew way off topic with the "its fine if the good guys do it" rant.

Apologies!

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Originally Posted by Deusteele

Also without context: An intelligent, charismatic leader gathered a band of refugee's and through tenacity, courage, and pure technological know-how found a nation in one of the most inhospitable climes. They then brought this technology to other parts of the realm. Doesn't that just sound so damn heroic you want to cry? But because they're the "bad guys" it's a bad thing.

That's how no context concepts work, anything can be twisted to ones own ends without context. You have a bias against Hydaelyn's actions, therefore you are going to cast any action taken by anyone associated with her to be somehow twisted into villainy.

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It does, but it conveniently leaves out the part where the hero was the reason those people were suffering in the first place. Which isn't context, but direct causation.

And to clarify, I have no bias against Hydaelyn or her actions. I'm just untrusting and cynical towards everything in general, until factually proven otherwise (at which point I might just become plain bitter, but thats another question).

You're trying to state that you're a rationalist.
But after several points shown that people act freely and without guidance from Hydaelyn you're showing a consistent tilt toward putting actions of those associated with her in a bad light. That's called bias.

@Crushnight, there was only 2 tribes the Oronir and the Dotharl that traveled south with Hien to help with the Doman Liberation (well per the EE Volume 2).