How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

Maybe it's just me but I would rather DPS focus on the fight not the meter because "OMG parse"

or a tank focus on tanking not the meter because "OMG Parse"

or a healer focus on healing not the meter because "OMG Parse"

But hey I am not one of the "Better players". I'm just a dude that has fun.

"Fun" and "parsing" are not mutually exclusive, Nyvara.

Good thing FFXIV has no parsers, Could you imagine what it would be like if people actually used a parser for this game? Oh... wait... You mean people already use parsers who want to use parsers? What is it this thread was about again? Right, PS4 limitations...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Lastly: I know I used 'sited' instead of 'cited.' But this is a long post, and I'm too lazy to fix it. So...there's two things for you to use when you make a retort to this post 1) How I spelt cited wrong, and 2) How I'm lazy, which somehow you will link to me being a bad player.

I totally want to make this my Sig!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Good thing FFXIV has no parsers, Could you imagine what it would be like if people actually used a parser for this game? Oh... wait... You mean people already use parsers who want to use parsers? What is it this thread was about again? Right, PS4 limitations...

The limitations, though, are due to requiring add-ons that are approved by Sony and Square, isn't it? So I doubt it so much as limitations of the console itself, but rather either one of both companies not willing to figure something out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyvara

Maybe it's just me but I would rather DPS focus on the fight not the meter because "OMG parse"

or a tank focus on tanking not the meter because "OMG Parse"

or a healer focus on healing not the meter because "OMG Parse"

But hey I am not one of the "Better players". I'm just a dude that has fun.

The only time generally anyone with a parser looks at it is after 1) a clear or 2) a wipe. After a clear to see how they stacked up or after a wipe to see where they need to improve. I can't think of anyone who really pays attention to it mid fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

...Or did I? This is why I say we are even. I assumed something that wasn't correct about you...your gear, my bad, but you are going to assume I don't know how the basics of the game works? I'm currently in the process of farming for the new(er) tank mounts. I'm starting with the Dark Knight, only because I hate Warrior so much that I want to put it off for as long as possible. I know how tanking works. I drop tank stance just like (most) everyone else during bosses, and just like (most) everyone else, get a little miffed when dps don't bother to use diversion...but I manage. I won't raid with my tanks...I like tanking (on paladin), but not enough to raid...so it's only logical for you to know the finer points better than me - a person that is merely trying for his tank mounts. But to assume that I know nothing? Let alone the basics of the game? C'mon.

Ill give you that Im being a touch overzealous, but I have my reasons. Saying people should stay in tank stance cause theyre not comfortable tanking is promoting bad tanks, or that they need high lvl gear to do the content. The game allows you to do something, and you choosing not to do it cause its easier for you is making things harder for others. This would be like saying "Im never going to use Cooldowns, cause I know that healers and DPS can use mitigation on the boss, so I dont have to really use any mitigation myself and just DPS."

You could do that, but you are hamstringing and burdening your DPS and heals for things YOU can do. The same is in reverse. YOU can also do decent DPS. If youre doing 1k DPS cause youre stuck in the mindset "I gotta stay in Grit cause its safer and easier", all youre doing is burdening your DPS and Healers to do MORE DPS to cover your short comings. And If both you and the other tank are only doing 2K combined, your forcing an addition 4-6K dps onto teh rest of the group. That is a huge amount of DPS to overcome. We all can talk about how we want better players, but if we dont stop with the "Stay where its comfortable mentality" people wont get better. I speak from experience on that. I stayed where it was comfy for so long. Probably to long. And I missed out on so much because of it. Admittedly, we dont need to be brusque about the issue, which Im guilty of, but it seriously needs to stop molly coddling players and just being straight wtih them. You can sit in tank stance and tank the entire fight in it, but you are not a great tank if you do. You are mediocre at best, and a beginner at worst. And experienced tanks (and players) can see this really quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

What I do know, is that my tanks came in to Burn and Arboretum at i350ish, all accessories and belt was gear from O1 and O2S, cause the weekly limit was gone, might as well get what you can, right? Plus I took a hiatus from this game, so I was not in Mendacity gear. In this i350ish gear, all I can say is...even after establishing hate and following rotations like a good little dark knight. Higher geared hardcore players devastated me when trying to keep hate. To the point where At about 20%, I had to go back in to Tank Stance, to ensure I didn't make an even bigger ass of myself, and lose tank aggro.

So Whatever you have on paper, and in theory, works only there. Were you the tank in that situation? I have no doubt in my mind you would have popped a Superior Strength Potion or whatever the hell you use mid rotation in order to maximize your deeps, yo, and maybe set a world record for keeping hate against i380 pentamelded allies, while in i350 gear, in The Burn. You're a pro. Have a cookie.

Its not about being pro, there are a lot of factors in your experience that need to be explained. As a point, did the following occur?:

1) Were you weaving in DAPS into your rotation every few combos to maintain a hate lead?
2) If you know the DPS are heavily geared, did you do a double DAPS opener in grit? (Definitely not the ideal, but it is a thing)
3) Were your DPS, with all their pro sauce dps, using aggro dumps or were they being jerks and just straight DPSing?
4) Were you riding oGCDs hard?
5) What is your weapons iLvl?

Part of the key to tanking out of Grit is doing good dps on top of threat management from your end. It is a lot harder for a DPS to overtake you in threat if youre a lot closer to them in it. Having a good threat lead with heavy dps goes a long way too, so establishing a lot of hate early on makes a difference. I get your experience. I know that feeling when your pushing yourself to the max just to keep threat from some DRG or SAM doing massive damage. Its a pain in the ass. But its not impossible to do it out of Grit, as again, I have done it after learning to do it. And it takes practice.

And on a more relevant note: IF youre going into new content at the bare minimum iLvL, yeah, its gonna be a struggle, and yeah, youre going to have to pull out all the stops. And heres the kick: The better you understand your class and what you can do, the less of a struggle you will have. Thats how it is actually done. Thats why you dont need 380 full melded crafted gear to do o9s and Suzaku EX. You can do those fights in lesser gear because if youre good and you know your class and you learn hte mechanics, the ultimate worry then becomes the enrage, which is your DPS check. This is why knowing things and really studying your class makes a difference. It makes having the gear requirement less important. It is, dont get me wrong, but I think you place so much emphasis on gear and not enough on knowing the nuance class you play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

And you don't practice anything in this game, unless you want to get mocked and ridiculed for it. Case and point: Here I am siting reasons (and I'm not the only one) as to why someone might tank stance a boss (I'm not even talking extreme/savage bosses here, because the average player doesn't do those), and I admit, I had a little bite in my comment, maybe incited a bit of bite in return...but lo and behold...Suddenly I'm a guy that doesn't understand how Enmity works. I'm a lowly pleb pleading his case amongst the elite masses. This is why people don't practice, unless among friends or friendly FC...because if they did it in front of strangers...they'd get torn a new asshole for being bad.

Im not part of an elite mass. At the very best, Im a little above mediocre. I make plenty of mistakes and am still learning the class. However, Im talking down to you because you (or rather people more broadly) are promoting a bad way of thinking. You are giving people excuses to rationalize being mediocre. Its the "Its not my fault, its really 'x's fault". X being gear, or dps who dont know better, or bad healers, or bad game mechanics or dungeon design. And it makes me upset because I was exactly one of those people who subscribed to that. "How could anyone tank out of tank stance! Thats stupid! Were tanks, not DPS!" or "I tank in tank stance cause its easier on the healers, and I dont have to worry about threat!". Or whatever excuse I had. I bought those ideas cause I was being lazy about actually putting in the effort to be better. And it was made all the more easier by fellow tanks telling me things like what you point out.

As a point, burdening your DPS to cover your DPS loss means the fight goes on longer, which means youll run a greater risk of hitting Enrage, or messing up mechanics thatll kill your team. Every time you have to repeat a mechanic, thats another chance you could wipe. And trust me, it is way way easier for you to push out +2k more DPS by knowing your class then it is for a DPS to push that volume out if they already know their class. Chances are, at this far in the xpac, youre not doing favors to your DPS or Heals by that way of thinking. Particularly if people want fast clears.

And yes, you DO practice in this game. A lot. You want to learn proper rotations and make sure you dont triple weave or do silly things: You practice on Training Dummies. You want to learn to tank out of Grit? You do it in dungeons on bosses. You awnt to practice cooldown usage and actually getting comfortable with healers keeping you topped, you play without the training wheels (when appropriate; you obviously do not mass pull out of grit on trash mobs, as a point. So Grit does have a purpose there...). You want to play the game better, you read up on the class, ask questions, and practice. Thats how you do it. And if you dont think you dont practice, consider how you play now vs how you first started. I bet you you play better now than then, simply because youve been playing the game, accruing experience. That is, more or less, practice. And believe me or not, teh amount of complete jerks who'll get pissy about you trying to be a better tank isnt that much. If you tell most players youre trying to get better, theyll say Ok. Particularly if you ask them "Hey, can you do this for me during the fight? Itd help." And if they still give you crap, well theyre garbage and not worth your time as it were. If youre being reasonable, and polite, most people who play will be cool with you. Cause frankly, other than fast clears, people want to play with cool players, not dicks (and that irony is not lost upon me right now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Good. I'm glad you are playing with the big boys and girls. Visualize your dreams, and go for them, I say. I mean, when I bit the bullet and finally tried my hand at stance dancing, it was like a sense of accomplishment. A trophy on the wall! But at least realize they are just your dreams...not everyone else's.

Yeah, I got that feeling too. It was amazing. And, for me, made the game that much funner. I had more options at my dispense, and I felt more accomplished as a result.

However, yes, those are my goals. To be better. And if thats not someones goal, that is there choice, and is fine by me. But do not expect me or other players to say that you are a good or great tank when you settle for mediocre. Hamstringing your ability to perform out of some arbitrary reason does not warrant praise. You can be an ok tank. If thats all you want to be, then ok. Just be honest about it and really dont tell other tanks who know their role the "what-for".

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Anyway. Yea...you know what the say about arguing on the internet...eventually it all leads back to Hitler. (Godwin's Law, if you aren't aware of that expression.) We can just forget this ever took place.

Well, im not going to call you Hitler, if thats any consolation. Stalin maybe. (Just kidding).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Any serious (or semi serious) static will kick you after a few runs if they notice youre tanking in Grit/SwordOath/Defiance for the entirety of EX/Savage fight. As I said, the game is not currently designed for you to sit in tank stance. After getting initial hate in any raid or savage content, you can do the rest of the fight in DPS stances.

Being 'comfortable' is just another way of saying "Im to lazy and/or insecure in being able to tank and use my CDs effectively to drop out of tank stance". For someone whos got lvl 70 tanks, and supposedly mains one, its slightly baffling you think good tanking is "sit in grit" the entire fight.

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs. Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

Do I stay in Shield Oath all the time during the dungeon? No.
Do I stay in Shield Oath when its more beneficial for the group, like the Holy/Spam situation or just give the healers some breathing room when others mess up? Yes.

Call me lazy when I try to give the situation the most benefit for healers. Especially on new dungeons in order to get my feet wet of how I can pull the groups in the most efficient way.

I honestly don't see why an official self-only parser would be a problem, you couldn't really use it against others, and you'd know what your numbers are, so you could improve

Quote:

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I honestly don't see why an official self-only parser would be a problem, you couldn't really use it against others, and you'd know what your numbers are, so you could improve

My guess is there will be "must have in-game parse of XXX or high. Show screenshot of proof or kick" which...sure, comes down to gameplay preferences, but people are technically already doing that with their not-technically-allowed parsing methods. To reiterate a previous post, were we to get one in game, I would hope that it would be something akin to the Duty Recorder where all members have to opt in, so there's a clear concent among people who want to be parsed (like those who want to improve/handle difficult raid tiers) and those who are fine as long as things get done without issues (like your duty roulettes and other casual dungeons).