I feel differently about this topic everytime I re-read it lol
I don't think that on-GCD Shield/Sword oath is that big of a deal, not even the MP cost. If you take away one or both of these it trivializes much of the "Risk/Reward" style gameplay that, if nothing else, at least adds a layer of depth to the raiding scene. I also don't think PLD is in such a bad spot as to warrant this kind of request, they are super defensive already and as mainly an OT now they never need to be in Shield anyways. It's mainly a QoL request to help when shit hits the fan.
DRK is a bit different because they lack in mitigation compared to the other tanks. Off-GCD/no MP cost Grit should be in consideration here along with other changes. Additionally DRK relies much more on MP, needing it for both offensive and defensive abilities, something not mimicked on PLD. Grit should not cost 3x as much MP as Shield or Sword Oath activation (though I understand MP generation rates are different)
As for War, it's fine, just stop touching it SE.
None of these opinions are set in stone, though. If all the tank stances where suddenly changed I doubt I would even notice. "Oh there's a new rotation?" That's about it lol
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04-04-2018, 07:34 AMwhiskeybravo
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04-04-2018, 07:46 AMSaenoLosing two globals to go into tank stance and back into sword oath is a massive cost to your MP. The 1200 MP is almost a holy spirit and is more than a Holy spirit when you consider the two lost globals that could have been a riot blade. PLD seemingly does not need it now but only because they avoid that downside at all costs by being in sword oath at all times. In non-raid content like 4 mans, the GCDs lost from Sword/Shield oath activation is a lot more apparent and feels absolutely awful when compared to what WAR has. oGCD stances is definitely a QoL but with tank stance balance currently, its feels more like a much needed buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
As for DRK, it's more or less the same issue except you lose one less GCD compared to PLD but lose a giant amount of MP, which could have been a Dark arts or a TBN. Losing those is a little less painful than a whole GCD, but it's still steep.
The main issue is that there is no way to make up for the cost payed by Sheild oath/Grit. There is no way to make up the lost global, no way to make up the lost DPS from the MP cost, no way to mitigate the damage penalty from tank stance, all things that WAR can answer for with their stance mechanics and skills. -
04-05-2018, 12:56 AMwhiskeybravoIt's a valid point except we don't min/max 4-man content, hence QoL. At the very least I could see dropping either the MP cost to switch between stances or make it off-GCD to switch between, but I think both together would be too much for PLD. Mitigation should come at cost in some form because (at least IMO) the cost/benefit dynamic adds a layer of depth to gamplay, and it's just a plain reasonable design. Aside from that, imagine there was no GCD or MP cost on Shield, all you'd do is pop up sheltron/Shield and never use a CD or be Godly and augment every CD you use with 1 or 2 seconds of Shield. That's a lot of mitigation that could easily trivialize every piece of content currently available lol. As for how it relates to War, keep in mind that Defiance itself is not mitigation thus the activation cost should be lower than that of a mitigating stance, and both other tanks have access to their bread & butter mitigation abilities outside of their mitigation stance. In this regard Defiance is fairly well balanced (I think).Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
But all in all, DRK is the one that needs the most help. -
04-05-2018, 05:08 AMSaenoYou mention a cost to the stances which is fair and reasonable. However, WAR can negate the lack of instance effect on their stance with skills, this is what makes Defiance unbalanced. Either WAR needs its lack of instant tank stance become a real thing (as in no more Equilibrium) and a nerf to Unchained or PLD/DRK stances need to be re-evaluated so that its balanced. I think Defiance and WAR's kit are a little overboard at the moment and there is no reason for it to be THAT good when PLD and DRK stances are this weak in comparison. For that reason, I do not consider WAR's stance to be fair and reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
EDIT: Currently, you can use Defiance in the exact same way you mentioned in an oGCD Sheild oath/Sword oath/Grit. WAR's can freely enter Defiance, then Unchained and Equilibrium for any tank damage to give them an additional 25% HP (and some extra since Equilibrium heals for more than just the missing 25%) all while losing little to no DPS or a global, which generates them more beast gauge. A PLD/DRK entering stance to help mitigate damage will have the same effect as a WAR using Equilibrium right after Defiance. The thing is, the PLD and DRK still payed MP to do so (and PLD will need to spend more MP to go back into sword) while WAR's can have their instant mit with no GCD loss while PLD and DRK cannot do anything to help with the lost DPS from their GCDs while in tank stance. By saying instant Shield oath/Grit is overpowered, then Defiance at the moment is overpowered and needs to be nerfed instead. -
04-05-2018, 05:32 AMwhiskeybravo
They can eliminate damage penalty once every 90 seconds, sure. It's exactly what players begged for for months at SB release, unbinding IR and Unchained, but now it's too OP? Adds a bit of jealousy to the tone of your comment. We've only had the skill for 5 years, I guess it's time to make it a useless button again :confused:
Consider this: Pld and Drk are given a skill that eliminates damage penalty for 15 seconds. Does that fix your problem with Pld/Drk stance dancing? No? Then this is not really the source for complaint. Unchained is a minimally used skill even with the change. Once on pull and maybe 1 or 2 times throughout a fight if you have to turn on Defiance for some reason. Since I main War and raid with a fairly casual group, there are plenty of times when I find myself needing to swap to Defiance to survive. I can tell you first hand Unchained is not up as much as you seem to think it is. And whether Unchained is up or not I still switch back to Deliverance as soon as I can. You can't act like it's a game breaking cooldown.
Same for Equilibrium. That 200 TP is soooooooo OP in Deliverance.. At least Clemency and TBN are usable without having to be in tank stance. Again, it's another practically useless skill outside of Defiance.
So, if you want to say Defiance + 2 additional abilities are > Shield Oath or Grit. Fine, I'll concede, 3 abilities are obviously better than only 1. But it's not fair to compare multiple parts of a kit to only 1 part of another. That's all I'm saying.
EDIT to your Edit :P Equilibrium does not heal for more than the 25% HP unless you get lucky with a crit, base heal is around 14k. Again, you have to use 2 abilities to mimic the effect of one, yet somehow the former is too strong. As for lost GCD/DPS, I already stated I could see them changing one or the other - mp cost or GCD - but I think both would be too strong (at least for PLD) UNLESS they are going to add a recast similar to Defiance so you can't just freely pop in and out when you feel like it.
But more than anything, this topic perplexes me when the meta is to use tank stance as little as possible, but now we need to some how make them more accessible because those 1 or 2 GCDs are really hurting my logs man.. -
04-05-2018, 05:48 AMSaenoIt was bound with Inner release because Unchained IS an extremely strong skill and always has been. Why PLD and DRK never received their own version of this skill is questionable to say the least. Unchained has lost its cost over the years and is now free, which is a really, REALLY big step up from costing 5 stacks like it used to. Unchained now is much better than it was in the past. Also, I think your comment on "jealousy" is very immature. I play all 3 tanks, I raid on all 3 tanks and while I play PLD for raid in my static, I will play WAR in every other piece of content. So please don't consider me as someone who doesnt play WAR and is jealous. I acknowledge that the balance between tank stances is extremely lopsided and needs to be reevaluated, as is the purpose of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
That would be awesome. In fact, that should already be a thing. And why 15 seconds when Unchained is 20 seconds?Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Nothing about it is gamebreaking. It's an extremely strong skill that adds a lot of strength to the WAR's kit. Not only is their mitigation toolkit near perfect, but they can also use their tank stance, something the other two tanks can't do very well. This, once again, is the focus of the thread. To make it worthwhile for all tanks to use their stance when the situation calls for it. As for the timer, of course it's not up often. You don't even need it often, but having that utility is a great boon and it's not really fair that WAR's get this while the other tanks don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
I dont understand why the Tp aspect of Equilibrium needs to be mentioned when that is not the focus of Defiance's strength. The 1200 potency heal (that also generates huge aggro) IS very strong. The fact that this skill is useless in Deliverance only makes it that much stronger with Defiance since you will be guaranteed to have Equilibrium for when you do enter Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
It's completely fair to compare 3 skills to 1 because that's exactly what makes Defiance so powerful as opposed to Shield oath and Grit. On its own, Defiance is just as balance as Shield oath and Grit (as it should be) but coupled with these very strong moves, Defiance is very clearly a more polished tank stance while Shield oath and Grit are just way weaker in comparison. 3 skills are better than one, as you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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04-05-2018, 06:01 AMSaenohttps://i.imgur.com/D9S4QKq.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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04-05-2018, 06:18 AMwhiskeybravo
I actually thought it was 16 seconds but that seemed odd so I went with 15. But you really only spend about 10 seconds in it anyways lol
This would have been a better way to put it originally. On the whole, no argument from me. I feel like Defiance War is virtually unkillable, I can take things in Defiance that absolutely wreck my PLD co-tank sometimes - the prey mechanic in v6s for example, he barely survives it sometimes, other times the dps take it to me I pop in Defiance, IB, and take virtually nothing for damage. Prolly has to do with OT taking more auto damage though. Still turned into a meme for my static lol (note there's nothing preventing him from sucking it up and hopping in Shield outside of greed)Quote:
Defiance is very clearly a more polished tank stance
Again I'm not against making the other stances more fluid, I certainly think the cost/benefit needs to be re-evaluated. I just don't want to see a situation where the incoming damage is more trivial than it already is. The game is not so demanding as to really need these kind of changes, it should mainly be a QoL adjustment that has little to no impact at end game.
In my defense I just got the 370 weapon last week. Going back through my logs Eq has been healing on average 14.5k. Runs from last night they were in the upper 15k range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
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04-05-2018, 06:23 AMSaenoWell said. I too have concerns of tanking becoming too easy since mitigation would be a joke, but damn it is already getting there when you play WAR. So many CDs, so many answers not including Palliside, Apoc, Blackest night/intervention, Divine Benison. It's a bit much but its fun. Because WAR's kit is so powerful, a buff to Shield/Grit would feel like catchup, which in turn is QoL. It would still need to be buffed though because the stances on PLD/DRK are too weak as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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04-05-2018, 06:31 AMAanaInstead of 1 skill to 1 or 1 skill to 3. Look at how the entire kit works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeno
Yes it's easier for war to slide in and out of defiance. That's intentional. By design.
You cant compare tank stances in a vacuum. You can have easy tank stances on pld/drk too. All you have to do is lock TBN and Shell/intervention behind Grit/Shield oaths. Then you can be just like war and well even throw in sentinel down to 2 min. How many TBN can I use during that 3 min? More than enough to throw vengeance back 60 sec.
As long as TBN/Shell are not stance limited and IB is, then war will need to be able to access it. If war plays 'like' pld/drk in the optimal meta way (never leave offense stance for raids), then we have a problem. Optimal war play slides into defiance, uses unchained, still takes small damage penalties once per CD cycle just to have something up. Ignoring roles as they are the same, war has a 60 sec reduction on their 'big' CD and ToB. Those two skills combined are weaker than TBN/Shell. ToB is basically 1 TBN/Shell use every 2 min. 60 sec reduction on vengeance is 1 extra CD every 6 min over Pld/Drk. 1 CD per. That's 4 CDs every 6 min, or 1 CD every 1:30 on average. Whats the CD on Shell/TBN again? War's play pattern is designed around using defiance as a mitigation tool.
There is a reason War is so easy so move between. You want to make me pay half my gauge and a gcd to swap to defiance and reduce vengeance to 3 min? Sure, as long as you give me acces to IB all the time. Because at that point, I can play like drk/pld and not actually NEED to use tank stance in the 1st place.
The wall to access IB and lack of one for shell/TBN is the reason tank stances are the way they are. Applying the same stance rules to all 3 tanks will not work as long as this remains the case. Tanks aren't designed the same way. Copy pasting one tanks actions and putting it on another does not fix asymmetrically balanced tanks.