This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

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Originally Posted by Veliena

You realize BLM has the highest dps in sigmascape yes?

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You realize that using Week 2 statistics as a citation for game balance that doesn't include raid dps contribution adds nothing to your point.

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Originally Posted by Veliena

Yes, but as he said, he wants blm to get a buff, not a raid buff. What other buff does he want? If they already do the highest damage, and he doesn't want a buff that helps the raid, then wtf does he want?

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Read my posts

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Originally Posted by Eli85

"Meta Parties" is the most laughable aspect of this game. Log analysis and raid fight break down tells you that any class within the roles is 100% capable of clearing the content. The raiding content in this game is not WoW's Mythic progression where you are class stacking for that extra 1%, and that 1%, because gear is not flowing like a waterfall, is the difference between wipe and clear.

If parties or FCs are insisting on the meta, you are better off not joining either. All it shows is the recruiter / leaders ignorance and / or they're trying to recruit a 'slightly better' class because the others in the group aren't playing to their potential.

Play what you enjoy. Any class can clear the hardest content in the game. Don't let this player ignorance bring you down.

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I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speedkills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

99% of all mythic wow guilds are not even focusing on that 1% and could probably be better served by playing classes they know well. That said, if the PF and a lot of raiding statics are purposefully excluding jobs, it's all well and good to ignore the meta, but the meta dictates what a lot of people will accept into their raiding group.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I'm all for people running what class they are comfortable with. However, anyone that says that there isn't a significant performance gain from using certain classes which makes progression easy and speed kills quicker, I don't want to raid with because clearly they don't have a clue about how the game works.

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When did I say there isn't a performance gain? Obviously, in any game, there will be some classes that perform better than others; and if the difference is egregious, then some re-balancing [should] occur.

Now let's go into some raiding realities.

Unless you are bleeding edge progression, you are not wiping because of 'numbers.' For the vast majority of hardcore raiders, you are struggling with mechanics far, far earlier than numbers. And, in all actuality, once you execute the mechanics flawlessly, the boss dies. Numbers only come in when balance is porous and / or you're carrying.

As for speed runs? Who cares? The boss dies. That's all the matters.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Saying that the balance of the game is fine because everything can clear is more ignorant imo.

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In a PvE context, it's not ignorance; it is really is fine. If every single class can complete the hardest content available, there isn't a balance issue. If you can complete the hardest content but still whine "mah numbers," then you just need your ego checked. Reality: your numbers don't mean anything so long as the boss dies. It's like when sports teams win a championship. Sure, the star player is lauded, but do you think the rest of the team gives two figs that their stat line wasn't on par with everyone else? No, they just care that they won.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

99% of all mythic wow guilds are not even focusing on that 1% and could probably be better served by playing classes they know well. That said, if the PF and a lot of raiding statics are purposefully excluding jobs, it's all well and good to ignore the meta, but the meta dictates what a lot of people will accept into their raiding group.

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And none of these groups and FCs are worth playing with. They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works. It's not worth the frustration of trying to join if these 'groups' think only the 'meta' can clear a fight (reality check: every class can).

of course not, but it can be extremely hard to find what you're looking for if you aren't playing the desired classes. you are not presenting any new information, and your suggestion of ignoring "ignoranance" is ignorant :\

Reality check: If every class is capable of meeting the DPS check, any class that doesn't bring something other than that is inherently weaker.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Reality check: If every class is capable of meeting the DPS check, any class that doesn't bring something other than that is inherently weaker.

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If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

of course not, but it can be extremely hard to find what you're looking for if you aren't playing the desired classes. you are not presenting any new information, and your suggestion of ignoring "ignoranance" is ignorant :\

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Very little of what's unpackaged in this thread is 'new information.' Ultimately, this meta party issue is a glaring community problem. The more people who spurn the ridiculousness that it is, the sooner it will go away.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.

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Refusing to take along valuable tools that come at literally no noticeable downside is selfish. You talk about avoiding those 'groups', but I'd rather be avoiding 'those people'.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Refusing to take along valuable tools that come at literally no noticeable downside is selfish. You talk about avoiding those 'groups', but I'd rather be avoiding 'those people'.

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I (nor anyone else that I can remember) is refusing to take along valuable tools that have no downside.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

<snipped>

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META isn't laughable, it's a realization of certain classes being better than others when put in the same group (i.e. Synergy). Buffs or debuts that affect a specific damage type are a problem when classes that do those damage types are quite "up there" when it comes to their ability to put out damage. You'd have to be dumb not to realize this and at least think about putting such a group together.

WoW doesn't have this issue, because the raid sizes are huge and classes have decent utility spread among them. Blizzard has fixed this issue - WoW had it too. Mages remember Sunwell, with Warlocks and Shadow Priests.

WoW content is also harder, with shorter enrage timers, and literal insta-kill mechanics and boss damage (to non-tanks). The margin for error is actually higher in WoW Mythic Raiding. FFXIV overloads encounters with mechanics, but they're actually quite forgiving compared to Mythic WoW raids or high end Mythic+ dungeons.

EDIT: Doesn't mean META is desirable. It isn't. It's a symptom of a problem. Blaming players for the work of the developers and insulting them is... ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

If any group actually 'needs' the 'superior class,' then there are larger issues with those groups. You're better off avoiding them.



Very little of what's unpackaged in this thread is 'new information.' Ultimately, this meta party issue is a glaring community problem. The more people who spurn the ridiculousness that it is, the sooner it will go away.

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It's not a need. It's a preference. I think your inability to understand this is clouding your judgement. You're trying to police the preferences of others. You're free to "prefer" to avoid them, but your choice to play a class they deem inferior for the content or group composition doesn't make it bad for them to prefer to avoid you.

The community is only a problem insofar as people like you would like them to ignore the glaringly obvious. They can do this, for the "betterment" of the game, but they're still putting themselves at an objective disadvantage. Again, the capability to do the content does not mean that your class is the most advantageous for completing the objectives within a given group composition. It can still be objective worse than several other classes. Asking them to ignore that is asking them to be willfully ignorant of pretty cut and dry issues in the game. It's actually kind of insulting that you and others like you keep quoting this B.S. about "every class can do it." The issue isn't capability, it's viability within given setups which perform better than others. That's what META is.

It has nothing to do with player attitudes, beyond wanting to stick to it. It has to do with mathematics. Math isn't based on their opinion, it's based on concrete evidence and facts.

Lastly...

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I (nor anyone else that I can remember) is refusing to take along valuable tools that have no downside.

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No. Uh uh.