Is It Even Possible To Have A New Healer Job?

I remember him saying the same, and I wouldn't be surprised he's also annoyed by tank going full dps.

But unless y.p have a talk with the team working on raids, the odds that heal will dps less are very very low.

As much as I hate dpsing as a healer, there's just nothing to do in between boss big aoe.
They'd need to buff boss AA by 100% to keep at least one healer busy (I mean, look at that wisp in os3, u need more than recup and a fairy) and probably some spot on dmg to prevent the second healer from dpsing 90% of the time

No damage, no heal needed, no heal needed, you either dps or count the tiles. (or overheal)

Again, I'm not saying to include a specific type of new healer, I'm only saying that there are plenty of POSSIBILITIES. WoW had Disc Priests heal by dealing damage, but it wasn't gamebreaking, it was just a different playstyle (and they had a few "traditional" heals for periods where there are no enemies to damage). RIFT also had a Mage soul (forgive me for not getting the terms quite right, I didn't play it much) that healed by dealing damage. Another game (Vanguard?) had Blood Mages that worked by draining HP from enemies and channeling it between allies.

Not all of these would work in FF14 - Blood Mage not so much due to the way FF systems work, Disc Priest would work pretty well. That isn't my argument.

My argument is simply that there are good possibilities out there. I personally just don't want to see 10 expansions that only add DPS jobs.

EDIT: For the record, I prefer healing without dpsing, so...I'm with Y.P. But options for other people that like dpsing is good.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

They'd need to buff boss AA by 100% to keep at least one healer busy (I mean, look at that wisp in os3, u need more than recup and a fairy) and probably some spot on dmg to prevent the second healer from dpsing 90% of the time

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The problem is I don't think most of playerbase would A)Be able to handle it and/or B)Want to be stuck continuously spamming a heal spell.
For A), the there is a big gap right now between those who can/want to play the game effectively and those who can't/don't care to (and this has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore).
As for B), healing is very monotonous, with DPSing being one of the few things that break up that monotony. Then there are those who only want to put in only a base-effort during runs... >x>

I haven't read the whole thread, and just want to chime in. But I don't believe they backed themselves into a corner. The engine of the game and the mechanics of enemies obviously constrict anything new they may want to implement, but that doesn't mean a new healer cannot be introduced. Every healer has a fundamental toolkit which consists of a couple heals, a cleanse, HoT, ability to bring a KO'd player back, etc. But they also have a diverse toolkit which makes them a job of their own: Burst heals, fairy, shields, cards, etc. More importantly though, what really separates the healers, is their offensive toolkit. So while a new healer will need those fundamental basic skills, the animations themselves is enough to give them a different feel even though they do the same thing. But then add those other two toolkits to really make it a healer of its own.

This is why I think the floor is all polished up and just wanting for Dancer. Our first melee healer in the style of FFXIV.

The issue with trying to make new healers is that for all the fancy tools we're given each expansion and even an entirely new job they gave us in HW, we break all unique healer tools into how much damage we can squeeze out of using them.

As of now HoT and shield healers are the only viable derivative I can see at the moment just because we don't really need any healing tools at all. Ignoring literally all the other components to a fight, a WHM would still be able to competently meet all the required healing checks without their job stone. So we prefer HoTs in general because they're more efficient and provide higher damage uptime. Then we look to damage mitigation because we literally can't clear some things without it, and once we do it becomes worthless.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

The issue with trying to make new healers is that for all the fancy tools we're given each expansion and even an entirely new job they gave us in HW, we break all unique healer tools into how much damage we can squeeze out of using them.

As of now HoT and shield healers are the only viable derivative I can see at the moment just because we don't really need any healing tools at all. Ignoring literally all the other components to a fight, a WHM would still be able to competently meet all the required healing checks without their job stone. So we prefer HoTs in general because they're more efficient and provide higher damage uptime. Then we look to damage mitigation because we literally can't clear some things without it, and once we do it becomes worthless.

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Following success (meeting of all short-term goals and minimum completion of long-term goals prior to enrage), the only improvement to that criteria is through increased speed, which is essentially just the rate by which long-term goals (which in 100% of a fights due to XIV's encounter designs are simply and always DPS) can be accomplished. Why shouldn't a toolkit be parsed for its benefit to the only existent long-term goal?

There will never be a benefit to exceeding the minimum value required for a short-term goal such as surviving a tankbuster except by the degree by which it allows for increased contribution rate towards the long-term goal (the boss's death).

That's not an issue. That's not a problem with the community or with toolkit design. The only true issue is lack of mechanic engagement by which for many different tools to provide competitive indirect throughput towards the long-term goal in how they meet short-term goals. And that is a fight design issue.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Following success (meeting of all short-term goals and minimum completion of long-term goals prior to enrage), the only improvement to that criteria is through increased speed, which is essentially just the rate by which long-term goals (which in 100% of a fights due to XIV's encounter designs are simply and always DPS) can be accomplished. Why shouldn't a toolkit be parsed for its benefit to the only existent long-term goal?

There will never be a benefit to exceeding the minimum value required for a short-term goal such as surviving a tankbuster except by the degree by which it allows for increased contribution rate towards the long-term goal (the boss's death).

That's not an issue. That's not a problem with the community or with toolkit design. The only true issue is lack of mechanic engagement by which for many different tools to provide competitive indirect throughput towards the long-term goal in how they meet short-term goals. And that is a fight design issue.

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Very much so, Shurrikhan. While there have been several excellent ideas for new healer concepts, they all seemingly stumble when faced by the elephant in the room.

The current duties and raids are all designed around the abilities of the three current healing jobs. If a new healing class is to be added, the damage taken by the party, and the means by which it was dealt will need to be adjusted.

For example, a drain and heal class could have excellent throughput; but, if the damage received by the party by a single attack is too much, the drain and heal healer will be hopelessly overwhelmed. The same thing happens with a HoT healer. You can have the best healing output in the game and still be unable to keep your party alive due to high burst damage.

But, I'm preaching to the choir.;)

So, can a new healer be added? Perhaps, but there would need to be adjustments to the instances and raids. Otherwise, what we will end up with is a class like we already have with a few whistles and bells; but, not anything particularly unique or interesting.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Very much so, Shurrikhan. While there have been several excellent ideas for new healer concepts, they all seemingly stumble when faced by the elephant in the room.

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I disagree. I mean no disrespect but you sound like you've already decided that the answer is no and you're just looking at things to support that point of view.

HW released a new tank, healer and DPS. The new dungeons introduced throughout HW showed a clear intent to balance the content among the new and old jobs. But they also didn't adjust any of the pre-existing content around the new jobs. The new jobs handled some things better than the original ones, and some things worse. SB continued that trend. The 61+ content shows a distinct change in design philosophy that clearly incorporates the new classes and previous content was left alone; and again in the old content they do better in some things and worse in others. Future expansions will create content with the new classes in mind and old content will sort itself out naturally.

You also assumes the devs won't balance the new healer kits so they'd be able to get through spikes in damage. Not every healer does well in every content, some are definitely more challenged than others but they're all capable of doing all the content. New healers will be no different. Some can weather spikes and tank busters better than others but all can do it. The concepts and core mechanics are what set the playstyles apart. The rest is just balancing the numbers on the new kit to make everything viable which is the exact same philosophy behind making new DPS classes and nobody would dream of creating this topic for a DPS and have it taken seriously.

The history of this game has already disproven your points. New healers can be made. New healers will be made. New healers will be viable in everything.

All a healer in FF14 absolutely must have is an on demand big heal for tank busters, an AOE heal, a revive spell, a weaker heal for spot healing non-tanks, and some method of managing resources (MP, Aetherflow, cards). All three present healers have these tools, and presumably any added healers will as well.

What makes the healers different is how they accomplish these tasks (WHM hots, SCH shields, AST's gimmick is cards +being able to mimic WHM/SCH). But they need those basic tools, and so will any new healer. Provided that any new healer has those tools, the only thing remaining to make it viable without being OP is proper tuning of the rest of its abilities.

This is party a question of encounter design (as mentioned above), and partly just adjusting numbers. And, for the record, having two ways of doing the same thing is quite distinct to people. Ask anyone in WoW who wanted to play a Fire instead of Frost Mage. Even simple visual effects and ability rotations/synergies matter.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Following success (meeting of all short-term goals and minimum completion of long-term goals prior to enrage), the only improvement to that criteria is through increased speed, which is essentially just the rate by which long-term goals (which in 100% of a fights due to XIV's encounter designs are simply and always DPS) can be accomplished. Why shouldn't a toolkit be parsed for its benefit to the only existent long-term goal?

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But it's not just following success. Even when progressing, you're not planning on "I'll save assize/earthly star/indom for this moment because it will allow me to pass the heal check comfortably." It's "if I use my oGCD at this moment I don't have to heal at all," because your base heals are so strong that anything else we have is superfluous to the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's not an issue. That's not a problem with the community or with toolkit design. The only true issue is lack of mechanic engagement by which for many different tools to provide competitive indirect throughput towards the long-term goal in how they meet short-term goals. And that is a fight design issue.

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It's not just a fight design issue, it's a healer balance issue. Never at any point is "do I have the gear to heal this" is called into question because unless the boss is constantly throwing out AoEs that drop you below 50% health, you're already overgeared for healing the moment you step into the instance. Healing is just too strong.

I can heal an entire 1/3 of a tank's HP with a single cure 2 and nothing else backing it. What could a boss do that could possibly threaten that? They can't just jack up the boss's damage because what will happen if an auto lines up with a tank buster? Increasing the amount of AoE damage won't help either because all of the healers, especially WHM, are just sitting on troves of mana even without mana shift and refresh.