I Love 4.0 Summoner. A lot.

Do we know if there is some CD between each RS proc ?

If someone gets hit several time in a few time, does it proc once or several times

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

It's like a 20 dps difference with Hali, Bard being only slightly lower, and if you are looking at exdeath and neo, Summoner is in the same situation with Red Mage.

Red Mage and Bard bring much more utility, and bring better, or similar amounts of dps.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Once more average players begin to reach those fights, you'll start seeing averages very similar to Alte Roite.

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Good points on both of you. I concede. :(

I wonder one thing about the balancing process....looking at Red and Black Mages, the BLM puts out heavier numbers, but the RDM was really pulling away in the beginning due to the mobility. Do you think that SMN has some similar issues on top of potency problems? Things like the delay of Wyrmwave, Bahamut prioritizing following the SMN over attacking, etc? Is BRD doing something similar because they can just sing and dance around mechanics and not worrying about any of these things? Sort of like a "stronger in practice than on paper," or "weaker in practice than on paper," in the case of SMN? It feels like their actual utility is hard to use or not practical for most party compositions.

Unfortunately, I'm finding leveling Summoner to be absolutely painful at this point past 60, myself. I'm sure it doesn't "take off" until 70 like every other class, but I really feel the changes from HW to SB with 60 SMN more than the others (and level sync feels especially brutal on SMN, for some reason, but that could be my imagination because I'm not used to the sudden emptiness in abilities).

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

Good points on both of you. I concede. :(

I wonder one thing about the balancing process....looking at Red and Black Mages, the BLM puts out heavier numbers, but the RDM was really pulling away in the beginning due to the mobility. Do you think that SMN has some similar issues on top of potency problems?

Unfortunately, I'm finding leveling Summoner to be absolutely painful at this point past 60, myself. I'm sure it doesn't "take off" until 70 like every other class, but I really feel the changes from HW to SB with 60 SMN more than the others (and level sync feels especially brutal on SMN, for some reason, but that could be my imagination because I'm not used to the sudden emptiness in abilities).

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Looking at the best Summoner parses, and noticing how a lot of damage is coming from Ruin 2, Id say that it's probably safe to say they are using Ruin 2 for the mobility. I think Summoner's problem is Square Enix really tried making it easier, and instead of new abilities that really improved the class, it took away from it. When you look at Summoner, it really didn't get any new skills in stormblood. Devotion, and Ahk Morn is about it. Oooooh Devotion. The most underwhelming skill in the game. Longer Lasting Dots that are quicker to cast and do less damage per tick, and a 15% chance to proc old Ruin 3 with a new animation is all Summoner got. Summon Bahamut to me, feels like a replacement for Rouse. (Wyrmwave being slightly stronger then Pet's normal attacks or about as Strong if your pet still had rouse. Ruin 4, Miasma 3 Bio 3 and Ahk Morn are all things Summoner already had. Heavensward Ruin 3 is Exactly the same as Ruin 4 in purpose, potency but without the proc chance. Miasma 3 and Bio 3 are the same old dots, with longer duration, and Ahk Morn is old deathflare with raging strikes. You just get more deathflares.

In my opinion, there are two options. Increase Summoner's core gameplay with increases in potencies, Having it be in the middle ground of Pure Damage Black Mage, and Utility Red Mage. This would include changing Bahamut into something more of a Dreadwyrm trance 2.0 with increased damage, reduced mp cost on spells, and instant cast spells. I would also Change Ahk Morn to be a Summoner's 680 potency, not a Pets. This would involve giving Summoner actual new abilities. Like changing Ruin 4 into something new and not old Ruin 3. Making Miasma 3 and Bio 3 into Aoe dots, then changing Bane into a new skill entirely and adjusting Devotion to be less frustrating and more like a side grade. (Like Devotion being something more akin to Dragoon's tether buff, Maybe Devotion buffs your pet, then applies the same buff it currently does to a party member of your choice, but also can apply Spur on said party member.

Or you can make Summoner the full on utility class, Buff Radiant Shield to 5% physical damage increase. Buff Contagion to 20% and extend it's duration to 20 seconds, and make devotion a party wide buff, While adjusting it's potencies to keep it in line. Ruin 4 still should be adjusted in my opinion. Maybe give it the additional effect that the next spell cast has it's cast time cut in half, to help Summoner better rez people or have more mobility.

When you look at Heavensward Summoner, You got 5 new skills that built upon Summoner's gameplay. Tri-Disaster and Painflare were amazing. Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare? Brilliant. Stormlood Summoner? Weaker Dots, yay? Frustrating Buff unusable in solo play, oh goodie? Ruin 3 rehashed? Oh Just what I always wanted.... Bahamut and Ahk Morn? Great in concept. Terrible execution.

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Originally Posted by Selova

This argument always makes me chuckle and it's not just the "I want my summoner to be a dot mage, I don't want to summon pets" mentality. You talk about non-compelling game play and then go on about how you want it to play like a dot mage. There is nothing compelling about applying mutiple ranks of the same dot and spamming ruin/fester ad nauseum.

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In your opinion.

In my opinion, being a "summoner" for less than 20% of combat time doesn't make you a summoner and isn't compelling gameplay. You said "a step in the right direction", but this is it. There is no step after that. Summoner filled a common role in MMOs that I wanted, which is the DoT playstyle.

It's a little absurd to find it strange that I liked the way Summoner was by talking about things you still have to do on the class, only you also do those things while you're "summoning" Bahamut. Might want to rethink that.

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

Here is that phrase again "---- in the right direction"... -snip-

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Nailed it.

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

Please point me to the other DoT based DPS class that is built all around maintaining it DoTs? You could argue BRD but that is more about keeping up and adjusting your rotation based on the current song you are playing. My issue is they removed my DoT based DPS class and didn't add an alternative for that play style.

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Also nailed it. Like I said in this thread, even though I got quoted and blatantly ignored, I would gladly drop summoner if they wanted to go down this route... if they made an alternate DoT based DPS class without a second thought.

I want to play the classic Warlock. You can't keep a class like that in the game for years, yank it for no reason, and then tell people who are rightfully upset to get over it. I don't know why people who are supposedly happy with the class even giving us their two cents as to why we're somehow wrong for wanting this.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

I honestly think more jobs should be like Summoner; one of the reasons I haven't played Red Mage is because it's so simple and straightforward

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Which is why the Red Mage is the Red Mage. It is quite obvious that different jobs are designed to play differently and to cater to different people. I enjoy the Red Mage. I enjoy it immensely. Why? Because it is simple. I do not look for a challenge in a game, because I've got enough of that at work (what I do is half art and half science, unlike regular office work, every minute I'm engaged at work requires analysis, concentration, creativity, and often require a good understanding of the legal consequences of my work---and my work actually requires professional liability insurance) so I hope you'll understand that there are people who prefer easy and simple jobs. This is also why I enjoy gathering. Yes, gathering. That brain-dead monkey-can-do part of the game that is the epitomy of "simple and straightforward", and "shallow".

I honestly think the variation in job mechanics is fine. Leave some of the game for us simple folk to enjoy, won't ya? :)

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Looking at the best Summoner parses, and noticing how a lot of damage is coming from Ruin 2, Id say that it's probably safe to say they are using Ruin 2 for the mobility.

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More than mobility, you have to weave your ogcd skills like aetherflow, fester/bane/energydrain/painflare, tri-disaster, rouse, enkindle, dreadwyrm trance, death flare, summon bahamut, akh morn, addle, shadow flare, lucid dreaming, swiftcast, mana shift etc all these listed abilties have to be weaved with ruin 2 spam even if you are not moving anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

When you look at Summoner, it really didn't get any new skills in stormblood. Devotion, and Ahk Morn is about it. Oooooh Devotion. The most underwhelming skill in the game. Longer Lasting Dots that are quicker to cast and do less damage per tick, and a 15% chance to proc old Ruin 3 with a new animation is all Summoner got. Summon Bahamut to me, feels like a replacement for Rouse. (Wyrmwave being slightly stronger then Pet's normal attacks or about as Strong if your pet still had rouse. Ruin 4, Miasma 3 Bio 3 and Ahk Morn are all things Summoner already had. Heavensward Ruin 3 is Exactly the same as Ruin 4 in purpose, potency but without the proc chance. Miasma 3 and Bio 3 are the same old dots, with longer duration, and Ahk Morn is old deathflare with raging strikes. You just get more deathflares.

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You know, when I made my last post, I knew there was something about SMN that felt off. Not just the way 60 SMN feels now compared to the way it felt in HW when I was playing, but looking at the new skills didn't really excite me like it did for other classes. It sort of felt like "more of the same, but somehow worse," compared to other classes I've played. This actually sums it up perfectly. I couldn't really put it into words.

Random question here, because there seems to be two schools of thought.. 1 being.. is the class fun. the other is that the damage is too low.. So i wonder honestly, if the "good" summoners parses maxed out at about 5.2k or something closer in line with blm.. Would anyone still have issue with the play style?

I know there are some insanely terrible things like bahamut movement. As for death recovery, that has always been bad for summoner.. in 3.x if you died after using aetherflow in your rotation... outside of resummoning your pet and casting some ruins. you was basically useless until AF came off cooldown.. Granted its "worse" now, but honestly.. just stop dying? In progression, you die to learn a fight mechanic.. you die because aoe damage goes out and your healer couldnt put out an aoe heal in time or you die because your trying to figure out the optimum rotation for the fight..
If your dying to the same mechanics over and over again.. Summoner simply isnt the class for you.

But for the slightly above average player who learns from each death and the pain of dying as a summoner.. They generally die less often than other classes.

A real life truth is that people are resistant to change. Out of all the DPS classes, Summoner seems to be the one that has "changed" the most.. I.E. BLM is still more or less using the same ruleset as b4 just like MNK.

I believe the issue is that people who enjoyed the class and felt they were good at it, now have to basically learn a new class and new priority management. They are then rewarded with this by Subpar DPS.

Then the fix is simply to tweek it so the dps is at a competitive level. (it should still be slightly lower than the other two due to contagion). At that point pretty sure 50% of the people who are in such stress about this class, suddenly nolonger care.

I dislike Summoner because FFXIV failed the job when held up again FFXI.
However as the change between 3.x - 4.0 is not as bad as people are making out. I know a couple of the names that are in the top 10 of fflogs for omega savage..

Their issue apart from the obvious Bahamut bs. Is not that the class is overly complicated..
Its not that the class has been simplified. They dont feel like it has lost its 3.x identity or gained a new one.. There issue is simply that the rotation is the most complex of the three and the damage is the lowest.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Red Mage has Embolden, which is a buff to all physical damage for 20 Seconds. Starts at 10% and dwindles down. Summoner brings 2% Physical damage increase with radiant shield, or contagion which is 10% magic damage increase for 10 seconds. You will hardly notice either buffs.

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First off, Contagion is 15 seconds, not 10. Which means, 10% damage buff for 15 seconds is better than Embolden which starts at 10% and starts dwindling after just 4 secs. So if you hardly notice contagion, you certainly won't notice Embolden. Secondly, radiant shield is the only cd between RDM and SMN that will benefit the tanks and both mag/phys dps, since it adds the 50 potency counterattack for autos and raidwide aoe damage (which will proc for all kinds of damage beside darkness, btw). Aside from the 2% phys damage buff, RS counters can be seen in parses like this one:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/JadQx...-done&source=9

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Originally Posted by Letz

First off, Contagion is 15 seconds, not 10. Which means, 10% damage buff for 15 seconds is better than Embolden which starts at 10% and starts dwindling after just 4 secs. So if you hardly notice contagion, you certainly won't notice Embolden. Secondly, radiant shield is the only cd between RDM and SMN that will benefit the tanks and both mag/phys dps, since it adds the 50 potency counterattack for autos and raidwide aoe damage (which will proc for all kinds of damage beside darkness, btw). Aside from the 2% phys damage buff, RS counters can be seen in parses like this one:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/JadQx...-done&source=9

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This is also a point i wanted to make in my post, but it was getting a bit lengthy. Contagion is actually huge. But most wont realize it because they dont run double caster groups.(dont forget healer dps)