[Opinion] Why I'm disappointed by most changes to healers.

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Originally Posted by Taika

But it's not their job!!!!111 :D

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Off-topic: this thread is a fine example of Godwin's law of ffxiv healers. As the post count grows any debate tends to the question whether it's a healer's job to dps. :D

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think you need around 21k party DPS to clear OS2 (at least our groups had a bit more than that on our first kills). Assuming your tanks do a total of 3500 (and why would they do more, it's not their job to DPS after all, right? :)), that leaves 4375 DPS for each DD assuming the healers do nothing. Can you honestly say it's fair to ask each of your DDs to push that much DPS while the healers do nothing but heal, and that if the group would meet enrage in that situation it would be the DDs' fault?

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Required DPS per SSS for OS2:

SAM: 4265.12
NIN: 4115.64
MNK: 4115.64
DRG: 3858.01
BLM: 4335.09
SMN: 4134.72
RDM: 4087.01
BRD: 3517.69
MCH: 3543.14

So yes, each DPS *should* be bringing at least 4k on average (some people apparently need to learn what averages are). At least. If they can't kill their SSS dummies, they shouldn't be in the raid run. This is a requirement for our group. You can't kill your dummy? You better start working on your rotations until you do. We have replacements and stand-ins for that.

It is the DPS' fault if they are not bringing at least the minimum required dps for their job. If you hit enrage, it's either due to too many deaths or dps is too low. Dps too low IS the DPS' fault if they are not hitting their requirements for fights.

Our O2S easy clear group tonight had
DRG:3895
SAM:3866
SMN:3756
RDM:3535

So far all of them under 4k

WAR:2389
PLD:2336
WHM:1148
SCH:824

Bringing total to 22.2k

AKA you don't need to all pull 4k dps to win

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Required DPS per SSS for OS2:

SAM: 4265.12
NIN: 4115.64
MNK: 4115.64
DRG: 3858.01
BLM: 4335.09
SMN: 4134.72
RDM: 4087.01
BRD: 3517.69
MCH: 3543.14

So yes, each DPS *should* be bringing at least 4k on average. At least. If they can't kill their SSS dummies, they shouldn't be in the raid run. This is a requirement for our group. You can't kill your dummy? You better start working on your rotations until you do. We have replacements and stand-ins for that.

It is the DPS' fault if they are not bringing at least the minimum required dps for their job. If you hit enrage, it's either due to too many deaths or dps is too low. Dps too low IS the DPS' fault if they are not hitting their requirements for fights.

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Take into account DPS on a training dummy is different from trying to optimize DPS in an actual fight where you have to deal with mechanics and have to deal with downtime due to invuln / phase changes. Also note that none of the numbers you've posted for SSS actually meet Taika's required 4,375DPS requirement to clear the content using their logic.

Just to lax number's argument, assuming tanks are doing 2K DPS each as per Nanamo's earlier comment and that LB3 is worth about 500 DPS worth of damage, the 21K required DPS is brought down to 16,500 DPS or 4,125 DPS. The only DPS that can match that number according to SSS would be the SAM, BLM, and RDM and that's basically assuming they get 100% uptime which you won't have in any real fight.

I'll just push this train of thought one step further and assume tanks are contributing 2.25K DPS (based on SSS numbers of PLD = 2649.40; WAR = 2662.12; and DRK = 2512.64) for a total of 5K DPS when you combine both tanks and LB3 together. Remaining DPS requirement is 1,600 DPS or 4,000 DPS per person. Assuming even a 5% downtime due to mechanical challenges (and thus DPS operating at 95% training dummy power), the only DPS that can make that number is BLM based on SSS requirements.

I'm not going to say either side is right or wrong ATM because this particular juncture. This train of thought has got me thinking about how the Dev team does their balancing. It's pretty clear people are making the required checks so my thoughts are the natural synergies between jobs allow them to far exceed the SSS numbers, which would make sense when you start including Slashing resistance debuffs for both tanks, piercing resistances for BRD/MCH, synergies with Brotherhood on MNK (which from what I understand effectively allow MNK to have effective-party-DPS equal to SAM personal DPS), AST cards, Chain Stratagem, etc etc.. and overcome the solo orientated SSS numbers. Alternatively, once you start to include even 50% of the SSS numbers from healers (effectively adding at least another 2K DPS to the group) and the shared DPS numbers for O2S then becomes 3,500 DPS per damage dealer which is pretty much on point for the SSS numbers then.

TLDR: Adding nothing meaningful to the conversation chain, just putting down some theorycraft for other poster's to formulate an opinion / respond to while I contemplate my own thoughts behind S-E's balancing and their stance on "healer DPS isn't required". Heh. This train of thought has been pretty eyeopening.

SSS has about as much in common with a Savage encounter as I do with a Roegadyn =(

If I could add something, it's quite easy to get the sss O2s requirement with low Ilvl (310), without food, pot and melded. So, with a party, and everything up + Astro+etc, you can +- meet my requirement. Even with downtime.

If I took ViolaCrossfire Number. The drg reach 3900 dps and he is the lowest close-combat dps atm. So Nin-monk-Sam should be 300-400 dps higher (the Drg score higher than the sss requirement so they could too). That would be 4200-4300. Maybe they get a super dragoon ? Or the other are slacking off. Maybe a bit of those two ? So, is the drg an exception ? A top 99% player ? why are his number so high compared to other ?



I would love more healing/tanking mechanic and less "I should bring 1200 dps cause my party dps is terrible".

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

So yes, each DPS *should* be bringing at least 4k on average. At least. If they can't kill their SSS dummies, they shouldn't be in the raid run.

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Are the DDs in your group delivering as high DPS numbers on their first raid kills than they are in a dumny fight? That's certainly impressive. :)

However, it's also very far from my point. Or maybe not: what I'm saying is, it's not fair to expect dummy DPS and top-5% performance from your DDs while at the same time expecting healers to not even use all of their abilities and only cover the (while we're talking about OS1 and OS2) very low healing requirements of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Are the DDs in your group delivering as high DPS numbers on their first raid kills than they are in a dumny fight? That's certainly impressive. :)

However, it's also very far from my point. Or maybe not: what I'm saying is, it's not fair to expect dummy DPS and top-5% performance from your DDs while at the same time expecting healers to not even use all of their abilities and only cover the (while we're talking about OS1 and OS2) very low healing requirements of the fight.

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It's not about expecting healers or not to dps. It's about healers bearing the responsibility to carry the burden of picking up slack dps. I've had quite a few runs, here and there, recently where not only the healers, but the tanks as well are out dpsing the dps. That is ridiculous. Why are dps never held to any standards yet we're always responsible for everything. That is the point.

Because thanks to the carebear mentality of SE, holding DPS to account over anything than outright mechanical failure is generally TOS breaking and ban worthy =(

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

It's not about expecting healers or not to dps. It's about healers bearing the responsibility to carry the burden of picking up slack dps. I've had quite a few runs, here and there, recently where not only the healers, but the tanks as well are out dpsing the dps. That is ridiculous. Why are dps never held to any standards...

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Absolutely no one is saying healers should be doing DPS to cover for the slacking DDs. All party members should carry their weight as evenly as possible in terms of performance. But a healer who refuses to DPS is not carrying their weight (just like a DD who isn't using their proper rotation isn't). And a healer like that has no right to demand a top-notch performance from the rest of their team members (just like a DD who isn't doing decent DPS has no right to demand better performance from their healers and so on). DPS simply is a part of standard level healer play in raiding just like following correct rotations is for DDs.