botting.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

stuff

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I grinded almost all crafts to 50 now, and I agree with every point you made

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Originally Posted by Vawn

Don't get me wrong with what I said earlier. Yeah, I'm not paying attention to the game, but I am still manually pressing the button. I'm just playing the game blind. Any actual bots should be dealt with (banned or otherwise) and this includes turbo-controlling and going afk.

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That's a ridiculous line to draw. You should get banned for holding down a turbo controller, but as long as you're the one pressing the button constantly it's fine, even if you're not there?

So, what if you are physically holding down the turbo button? Is that bannable?

The fact of the matter is the gameplay systems encourages this degenrative gameplay. It would behoove them to fix the gameplay so that it's more rewarding to actually play, than to try to force people to sit at their computer and press enter for hours on end.

Very poorly designed crafting system. I know I know its super SHOCKING with how well designed the rest of the game is.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

It would behoove them to fix the gameplay so that it's more rewarding to actually play

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There is no reward they could give me to entice me to want to craft.

I would always choose a machine to craft for me, if possible, regardless of the reward.

Kinda like we do in real life... machines craft for us...

(If I were to craft.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

OP was a bit vague but I assume he's referring specifically to crafting bots? And/or turbo controller users?

Excuse the long post, and look for the bold for the tl;dr.

AFK-crafting in FF14 is a symptom several major problems of the crafting system itself. I'll do my best to explain my opinions on the big ones, starting with:
1) Absurd time invesment requirements. Not only does it take a solid minute or so to complete one item and begin the next, the game demands your attention every 3 seconds like a nagging 4 year old. I always imagine the crafting system to be one of those really annoying jersey shore-types that use the words "bro" and "alpha" unironically.

"Hey bro, how you wanna go about this?"
>Standard
"Ok, good choice bro."
...
"So, what will it be this time?"
>Standard
...
"Yo bro, wh-"
>Standard

I believe a system such as this would be serviceable(not anywhere near ideal, mind you) were it not for the...
2) Terrible rate of progression. Now we're cooking with ass. The snail-like pace of the crafting process compounds the abysmal rate of experience points. There is a huge gap between the average and optimal experience point rates between combat classes and crafter classes, but they are are on the same leveling curve!

100,000 experience points may breeze by in an entertaining group activity for my conjurer, but I'll be lucky(or rather, masochistic) if I make that much in 6 hours of straight crafting, especially towards the higher end. My current strategy for getting a craft from 48-50 is saving up leves and mashing them out. And it takes about 50-60 or so to do it.

So we know about how slow the process is, but that wouldn't itself explain why so very many people are tapin' dat x button down on their controllers. Well, there's a few(or more) problems left to discuss, let's continue with...
3) Random occurrences mitigate player decision-making/skill. Ah yes, RNG. FF14's crafting system is completely full of random outcomes at every turn. Any skill not named perfection will only increase the chances of a favorable outcome. An element can still destabilize on a white orb, and an action can still get a no-durability lost success on a red orb. This is further exacerbated by a...

4) Lack of information. An avid crafter who has done hours of research on the vastness of the internet only has a smidgeon of an idea of how the mechanics of crafting work. How is a new player supposed to know what the hell control, craftsmanship, and magic craftsmanship effect? Why are recipe levels kept hidden from players? Not to mention hidden background statistics, most notably "risk." Were it not for skills such as high return, we'd not even know to call it that.

Throw all of the above together, and we reach the final, most damnable aspect of FF14's crafting system:
5) Broken Effort to Reward Ratio. This refers to how putting for the effort to make advancement is rewarded. In a healthy effort to reward ratio, a player who makes larger contributions of skill to the task at hand is awarded proportionately to the act. Think about 14's crafting system with this in mind. The player who invests time into trying to maximize the result of a crating attempt may, at best, hope for an additional 50 or experience points, and a scaling (but always sub-40%?) chance of an HQ product. Now factor the additional time required for this.

So! What does all that mean, and how does it relate to bots and turbo controllers? Ask yourself the following:

"Why should I pay attention to crafting for long, long hours at a time, when mashing on standard synthesis is nearly as effective, and can be done while I do other, more interesting things?"

Truly, a difficult question to answer. I'll leave you with one final thing to roll around in those heads of yours.

The only way to prevent botting is to not design content that encourages it!
A mindless, grindy crafting system will inevitably be "played" by a mindless bot.

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Beautiful post. This is sums it up pretty comprehensively.

no matter the change those that bot will continue to do so. the game can be as challenging as they want to make it and just as involved, but the people that only bot for the advantage of ranking without effort are going to continue doing so. the best thing for them to do is ban the people botting completely.

the new systems put in place benefit the people that botted to cap anyways.

what do i mean? look at materia.... it doesn't matter if you took the time and learned your skill or botted to cap the same percentage applies to both attaching materia. look at crafting..... it doesn't matter if you took the time to craft and collect books and use guild supports anymore since the requirement for those are removed besides when doing local leves. the people that took their time and tried and worked crafting to learn their skills are now just as good a crafter as someone that opened a program and walked away.

the people to blame for this repetative system and the botting that goes on have nobody to blame for it than themselves. if people had went after wanting a new system instead of making recipes easier(which also assists bots) then maybe there would be an engaging system in place then spotting a botter was easier. the changes made to crafting that made things easier for the lazy people that didn't want to invest time in the game actually turns out to be the best thing to happen for people that bot now.

Personally, I start mashing the A button on my controller, and watch youtube videos.
I may not have a bot, or turbo controllers, but crafting doesnt feel rewarding, AND attempting to "TRY" only feels like it HURTs more than it HELPs.
Oh noes, it went red, ill hit wait, still red... ill hit wait... still red... standard, success!... oh look its white, fail, still white, critical fail... so on, and so forth.... the abilities/situations are a difference of like 1% and unnoticeable...

Other MMos, u sit back and watch it craft for you. so complaining ppl are botting these, is kinda meh~ to be worrying about.
I dont encourage it, but in the end, looking at what i do, its not rly too much different in this scenario.
I think the ability to mass produce, and the ability to craft faster, can help, and should be there, BUT also give players, doing crafts of their Lv range, the ability to be APART of the craft... actually doing something that's noticeably important.
Give different recipes different 'strategies'. give all those elemental destabilizations some special trick maybe...

A half-assed mini game is worse than the WoW standard of auto making stuff with a click.
A well put together mini game (which this is not) can make things fun and a step forward.
FFXI looked to add typical MMO features, but only half-assed.
Like the create a dungeon of FFXI.
Don't limit yourselves SE.
You are only hurting yourselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the people to blame for this repetative system and the botting that goes on have nobody to blame for it than themselves. if people had went after wanting a new system instead of making recipes easier(which also assists bots) then maybe there would be an engaging system in place then spotting a botter was easier. the changes made to crafting that made things easier for the lazy people that didn't want to invest time in the game actually turns out to be the best thing to happen for people that bot now.

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I don't know where anyone got this general idea that the devs are absolved of any responsibility of serious design flaws. They made it and left it this way and even made afk button spamming possible by changing the default cursor placement. Players are not and cannot hold the gun to their heads to change something, the end result is entirely up to the devs. I don't ever recall requests to be able to watch a full length movie without looking at the game at any point during that and keep crafting without any issue.

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Originally Posted by Nayt

What I want to say is, why is being non-responsive grounds for being accused of botting?

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It does have to be said this "no speaky lots of banny" policy existed in FFXI and WoW and pretty much any other MMO. All the GM can do is port out to you invisible and watch you for a time and make assumptions.

I doubt you'll get banned for being unresponsive in FFXIV right now, though. That's like inviting someone(1) to your birthday party and making them leave because they ate some of your cake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

OP was a bit vague but I assume he's referring specifically to crafting bots? And/or turbo controller users?

Excuse the long post, and look for the bold for the tl;dr.

AFK-crafting in FF14 is a symptom several major problems of the crafting system itself. I'll do my best to explain my opinions on the big ones, starting with:
1) Absurd time invesment requirements. Not only does it take a solid minute or so to complete one item and begin the next, the game demands your attention every 3 seconds like a nagging 4 year old. I always imagine the crafting system to be one of those really annoying jersey shore-types that use the words "bro" and "alpha" unironically.

"Hey bro, how you wanna go about this?"
>Standard
"Ok, good choice bro."
...
"So, what will it be this time?"
>Standard
...
"Yo bro, wh-"
>Standard

I believe a system such as this would be serviceable(not anywhere near ideal, mind you) were it not for the...
2) Terrible rate of progression. Now we're cooking with ass. The snail-like pace of the crafting process compounds the abysmal rate of experience points. There is a huge gap between the average and optimal experience point rates between combat classes and crafter classes, but they are are on the same leveling curve!

100,000 experience points may breeze by in an entertaining group activity for my conjurer, but I'll be lucky(or rather, masochistic) if I make that much in 6 hours of straight crafting, especially towards the higher end. My current strategy for getting a craft from 48-50 is saving up leves and mashing them out. And it takes about 50-60 or so to do it.

So we know about how slow the process is, but that wouldn't itself explain why so very many people are tapin' dat x button down on their controllers. Well, there's a few(or more) problems left to discuss, let's continue with...
3) Random occurrences mitigate player decision-making/skill. Ah yes, RNG. FF14's crafting system is completely full of random outcomes at every turn. Any skill not named perfection will only increase the chances of a favorable outcome. An element can still destabilize on a white orb, and an action can still get a no-durability lost success on a red orb. This is further exacerbated by a...

4) Lack of information. An avid crafter who has done hours of research on the vastness of the internet only has a smidgeon of an idea of how the mechanics of crafting work. How is a new player supposed to know what the hell control, craftsmanship, and magic craftsmanship effect? Why are recipe levels kept hidden from players? Not to mention hidden background statistics, most notably "risk." Were it not for skills such as high return, we'd not even know to call it that.

Throw all of the above together, and we reach the final, most damnable aspect of FF14's crafting system:
5) Broken Effort to Reward Ratio. This refers to how putting for the effort to make advancement is rewarded. In a healthy effort to reward ratio, a player who makes larger contributions of skill to the task at hand is awarded proportionately to the act. Think about 14's crafting system with this in mind. The player who invests time into trying to maximize the result of a crating attempt may, at best, hope for an additional 50 or experience points, and a scaling (but always sub-40%?) chance of an HQ product. Now factor the additional time required for this.

So! What does all that mean, and how does it relate to bots and turbo controllers? Ask yourself the following:

"Why should I pay attention to crafting for long, long hours at a time, when mashing on standard synthesis is nearly as effective, and can be done while I do other, more interesting things?"

Truly, a difficult question to answer. I'll leave you with one final thing to roll around in those heads of yours.

The only way to prevent botting is to not design content that encourages it!
A mindless, grindy crafting system will inevitably be "played" by a mindless bot.

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/thread~~~