Ilberd

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Not that Ala Mhigo has much of a leg to stand on in this regard, given its own history of aggression.

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That'll just be brushed off as Ala Mhigo supposedly being more 'moderate' and somehow free of blame for many because it had a 'mad ruler'. Something, ironically, that can excuse Garlemald too. Albeit I'm reluctant to consider Varis as unhinged since he's simply very driven. He's a lot like Tywin Lannister - willing to do a lot of shady, questionable things for the perceived greater good. Sadly they're both the sort of characters many here struggle to appreciate to view as anything other than outright evil. I blame the mainstream media's glorification of simplistic morality.

Seems to have worked wonders on some. ;) Who knows, we might even get our own FFXIV version of Bush, agitating for war against Garlemald because it has Allagan WMD.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for Hydaelyn being 'weakened' by Garlemald's actions? Even if that's the case most of the blame can rest on her for not being bloody open and honest with the WoL and Scions. Though since it's heavily implied that all is not as it seems with her it's probably premature to pin the Garleans as the bad guys just yet.

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So you're going to blame Hydaelyn for not communicating with the Garleans? Aren't they trying to save her?
I have listed the facts of all Garleans that eventually ended up doing more harm than good to Hydaelyn. Did Hydaelyn say she used most of her strenth against Ultima? Was she not harmed when Bahamut unleashed his fury?

Really the real bad guys here are the Ascians, at least Thordan was able to (maybe) get rid of one of them

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Originally Posted by Lauront

How on earth do you think Rome operated? The story, nevertheless, doesn't present them in the same vein as Nazis, and if you want to argue that they don't specifically aim to destroy the Primals for the danger that they pose to Eorzea, back it up.

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None of it is a direct parallel, though I actually quite like the "Allag as Rome" comparison. I simply said that Garlemald comes off as more of a modern Imperialist dictatorship than an ancient one, and it's entirely because of the way the game itself has presented them to us. You can conjure up potential sympathetic reasons for their actions all you want, but the actual evidence provided in game doesn't support a sympathetic view. Not yet, anyways.

Speaking of evidence! That the game itself has never presented the Garleans as especially concerned for the Planet helps, but as always, my primary source for Garlemald's anti-Primal drive is Moose's The Rise and Fall of the White Raven. It's made pretty clear that Garlemald's first major offensive in Eorzea (after capturing Ala Mhigo) was to control the source of regional Aether in order to prevent Primal summoning because of the difficulties Primals presented in Othard, and that article being endorsed by Fern himself makes me throw quite a bit of stock behind its interpretation of things.

So, yeah. The greater good of Garlean Expansion is their reason for doing what they do. But, if you can find evidence of their Primal crusade being motivated by the greater good of Hydaelyn, I'd love to see it.

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Originally Posted by myahele

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No, I'm blaming Hydaelyn for not communicating with anyone. Even the WoL and the Scions are fumbling around in the dark because she isn't open and honest with them despite their continued loyalty. Which suggests she has something to hide. As for the Garleans that you've listed as doing more harm than good...there's only a handful of prominent figures to consider. You're referring to the likes of Nael and Gaius, I imagine? We don't know a whole lot about Varis' motives just yet so we can't speak with the benefit of hindsight.

Still, people around these parts are way too hard on the Garleans. Eorzea itself has harboured numerous individuals who have caused Eorzea all sorts of difficulties and harm so it's not as if it's some sort of pure and righteous place.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

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There's Varis' quote from the encounter in the Sea of Clouds. I can't get online at the moment to check but I'm pretty certain it's along the lines of 'You know as well as we what will ensue should these insatiable beasts be allowed to roam free' as he and his men seek to pursue the Bismarck. Since they were aware of the Archbishop's plan - something that hasn't really been explained - they were also seeking to put a stop to him, too.

Granted, he also implies that he isn't above exterminating 'certain elements' for the greater good but that just ties in with my comparison to Tywin Lannister. They're both ruthless and efficient, not outright evil. It's also worth noting that the WoL and the Scions operate under the exact same code and aren't above exterminating entire elements or groups if they don't align with their own goals. Excuses can be made for this to some extent but it's not as if Eorzea is left a better place for it in many cases. The entire story in Ishgard has highlighted how much is lost during war and infighting.

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Originally Posted by CyrusArjuna

Eh, that kinda falls flat when you realize that the Allagans took the peoples indigenous to Meracydia, forced them to summon their Primals, then trapped them and their gods in stasis for thousands of years just as a battery.

And as for the summoning in Othard...we have no information about that event other than the fact that it happened. And it obviously happened before the events of 1.0 (or could be retconned to be so). For all we know, their tactic of brainwashing conquered people might have been devised as a Primal countermeasure after huge losses sustained in Othard. The Garlean Empire might have been more pragmatic before the threat of Primals was made evident to them.

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Not exacly.

Roman was the biggest empire that ever exited and that lasted most than anyone. They were the most advanced civilisation of those times. In culture, military power and economy. They had no rival that could matched.
Infact despite we are now really much more advanced, it is said that when Rome falled, a lot of the informacion they had was destroyed, so in some small way there was a "regresion". We dont know how it would be if we had recover all, ethier we know if we re-discover it withouth knowing.

So yea, the Allagans look more like the Romans than the Garleans on my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's Varis' quote from the encounter in the Sea of Clouds.......

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Ok, so your entire point of Garleans are good and they are doing this for the sake of Hydaelyn is based on a vague talk that Varis said?
Varis an emperor and dictator.. yes sure

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Ok, so your entire point of Garleans are good and they are doing this for the sake of Hydaelyn is based on a vague talk that Varis said?
Varis an emperor and dictator.. yes sure

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I'm pretty sure he held that viewpoint long before that point in the story.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I'm pretty sure he held that viewpoint long before that point in the story.

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when? If I remeber right, it is the first time Varis said something like that.

Who else? Gaius? He was alone. The emperor did not share his point of views.

Gaius wished to 'save' Eorzea. Varis is more concerned with Hydaelyn as a whole. Both were/are prepared to go to great lengths to ensure that their plans come to fruition - and let's be honest here, if they succeeded it's very likely that the Primal/Eikon threat would lessen considerably. That they resort to extreme measures does not necessarily mean they are evil. At this point we can only speculate as to Garlemald's overall motives since a lot of stuff is still shrouded in mystery. I do not feel it is unfair to give them the benefit of the doubt regarding their morality when we're dealing with a setting that goes to great lengths to paint many antagonists as morally complex rather than irredeemably evil.

Which is why we really should just agree to disagree, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

when? If I remeber right, it is the first time Varis said something like that.

Who else? Gaius? He was alone. The emperor did not share his point of views.

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It's also the first time Varis said much at all.

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None of it is a direct parallel, though I actually quite like the "Allag as Rome" comparison.

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Great, as long as we recognise that it also leaves no reasons to care one whit about the Ala Mhigans or Ala Mhigo. Perhaps SE could present more reasons to be sympathetic with them, much like they could with Garlemald. We're already working with the very questionable city-state of Ul'dah.

As for the Garlean motives, wanting the Primals vanquished for the threat they posed to their conquest does not preclude wanting them obliterated for the broader threat they pose, which is pretty much the viewpoint Varis is expressing. So I'd say there is some evidence of such a strain of thinking within the Empire.

BTW, who is this Fern? A SE developer/designer?