Taru, this will be my last message to you. I really can't imagine our conversations going anywhere good.
Your blanket statements such as "Deflation is bad for an economy, and the wealthy will be the only ones thriving. Small, steady inflation makes for a very healthy economy." fail to consider the specific nature of MMO economies. As I pointed out a few posts ago, MMO economies start in states of hyper-inflation, because the total amount of currency in circulation is essentially uncontrolled, and players are allowed to "print" as much money as they care to, by generating it through game mechanics. This, specifically, is why gil destruction is necessary, as this gil travels upwards through means I have already described, and if not destroyed, sits forever in the topmost class of player.
You've taken great pains to tell me why gil destruction is bad, and at this point, I can't think of any reason to debate you further. I don't need to. SE is on my side, not yours. And not just SE - every major MMO developer knows the importance of destroying gil at the top end. That's why repair costs scale. That's why housing cost so much in the first place. Gil destruction is a vital element of these games, and is ubiquitous. It is everywhere, in every game that has a currency similar to gil or wow gold. Nothing more to say about this, really. If you don't get it at this point, it's because you're simply trolling me, or because you've chosen not to get it.
As for your doubts as to my level of altruism and unselfishness with my imaginary fantasy money, I can think of a better way to equalize than to shove my gil up my own butt: I'm going to give some away to new players, and I'm going to lick my lips with pleasure and think of you while I do it. I'll take screenshots of the process, and edit them into this post when I'm done.
First image is included for a point of reference - my starting gil. (These two didn't want free money.)
http://puu.sh/i7qkT/4e4871b7d8.jpg
Gift me Elmo:
http://puu.sh/i7qmV/589041501c.jpg
I'm 'zerk too - with my wallet.
http://puu.sh/i7qGL/109b367e1e.jpg
Daknid gets Dat gil
http://puu.sh/i7s3F/8556804988.jpg
Stygian is both proud and practical.
http://puu.sh/i7s5f/a471d11595.jpg
NOTE: DON'T BOTHER ASKING ME FOR GIL. It went to the unsuspecting, the unwary, the obviously and genuinely new.
I think that's enough charity for the moment.
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06-01-2015, 02:59 AMYeldir
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06-01-2015, 03:06 AMGenJoeYou're right, rent would alienate more people and I think that's what us the rent advocates are after..Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Personally, I'm in suppose of both, inactivity check plus an upkeep, I admit it may limit the housing to mostly wealthy, but I feel like even then we'd have problems with shortage on housing on most servers. Also, if being rich was the only way to own and maintain a house, people would just put more effort into making the gil, many people are already capable of earning much more gil than they currently do, they just don't because there's no need for it. Will this make the task a chore? That depends, people who did the Zeta grind wouldn't say that it was a chore even though they probably hated the grind on more than a few occasions, but the grind is necessary for an MMO, grind to keep a house on top of the other grinds we already have, I don't think it'll change things too much. -
06-01-2015, 03:25 AMNalienThere is a difference though; Zeta had a cut off. If you had to continually grind Atma every month to maintain your Atma weapon, redo Animus books because they wore off every month, do new Sphere Scrolls, etc., people would be just as pissed at the Relic grind as they are at this Rent concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by GenJoe
Like I said earlier, I don't see much problem with a Rent if it has some cut off that effectively means I pay the same thing just in smaller installments. Having an endless Rent system just increases the amount I'd sink into my house; If it cost me 10m, by now it would perhaps have cost me 12m. That would keep inflating, and if I got bored of owning virtual land and wanted to pass it on to someone else... Well now we have a problem. I want something back, the more I sink into it the more I'm going to want back. That creates a situation where owners are less willing to give up land they're not using. Surely we want a situation where people who've grown bored of their house want to move it on quickly? Rent doesn't achieve that. A proper land for sale system does.
Both what I've suggested earlier, and Rent, achieve the exact same thing. The only real difference is Rent annoys a great deal of people and further 1%s house owners, while what I've suggested actually rewards people for being reasonable and passing on their land to someone else. -
06-01-2015, 03:31 AMYeldir
I'll admit that rent isn't the only way to destroy gil that targets the wealthy. It's just a damned good one, because it kills two birds with one stone. Just because it exists doesn't mean it needs to slam small house owners for unreasonable amounts - as for people claiming 150k a month to be unreasonable, well. I'm not sure what to say to that. I play on a poor server with a horrible economy with extreme top-end weighting, and 150k would just take a few hours of level 30 gathering/processing with smart choices about what to gather.
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06-01-2015, 04:23 AMStouterTaru
What does it accomplish in the end though? If you take away half the gil of everyone with 100M or more, how would it alter the economy in any way? Will it change their spending habits at all?
That money is just sitting there, doing nothing. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist in the economy. There are much better ways to create a money sink than "targeting" the rich by taxing housing. The biggest one is NPC bought items worth buying.
You want people to have a chance to compete with you? The game already takes care of this with nerfing old content. Items for DoH/DoL progression are much more readily available now. FCIII demimateria takes an NPC buy and desynth instead of 210 shards and 10 minutes of crafting (two birds with one stone here). People can gear up to do new battle content with tomes without having to get a team together to do a raid nobody wants to do any more. -
06-01-2015, 05:30 AMBuff_Archer
With massive inflation, the gil that's generated through ingame activities such as quest rewards and killing mobs would be worth (relatively speaking) less and less. Money chiefly comes from two sources- other players (so via marketplace), and what's generated by the game. When we sell stuff to other players, we're getting gil that at some point in the past was generated through an ingame reward even if it passed through the hands of several players before it got to you. So inflation doesn't mean over the long term we all have more money, since the amount generated would become less and less relevant in relation to market prices.
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06-01-2015, 08:52 AMKryloHold on a moment. I've got something for this. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldir
It's around here somewhere. . .
Haven't pulled it out in awhile. . .
Oh there it is:
http://i.imgur.com/zxUtnzm.gif -
06-01-2015, 09:47 AMGenJoeQuote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
As far as I can see with my limited knowledge on the subject
It will accomplish 2 major things.
1. It will decrease the gap between the rich and the poor. It won't alter how the economy works, but it WILL create more of a middle class. Mind you, the only reason poor are poor in this game is because they're not doing much of the gil farming. It's not that they're incapable of doing it, they simply opt out for personal reasons (boredom, lack of time, whatever else, all legitimate excuses) But these people still generate green gil, they DO have a source of income, it just doesn't count for anything in the current economy because everything's so overpriced.
In fact, the hardcore crafters don't generate any green gil at all, they just take the money from other players. Green gil should scale as new contents roll out, but they do at a terribly slow rate in this game.. As people hit max level, this means that their income becomes static, how do you give these people more purchasing power when their income is capped? You decrease the total amount of gil in the system.
Crafter's income is not static, it is not capped.. which is why their income contributes to inflation.
2. It's a preventative measure against hyper-inflation
Inflation, deflation either of the two are bad for the economy if it's at the extreme end of the spectrum. You have to take the current economic situation of the servers into account though and decide what measures need to be taken. As far as I can see, with some exceptions like Masamune, most servers already suffer from inflation, if you look at the MB history of items like Kingly Whiskers, Demimog materia, Throne gem, Floss Silk etc.. You would see that the price actually increased from when the item was first released.
That's telling me that the very first Kingly Whisker was sold for about 1/4th of the price they're being sold for right now and it hasn't even been that long, a few months.. What's the cause of this? Is it the lack of supply? or too much demand? No, there are always few of these items listed on the MB, and people do buy them on regular basis. While shifting around the supply and demand would change its prices, the underlying cause of price hike on these items is that crafters can afford to pay more as time goes on because their wallet increases exponentially. As crafters amass more wealth, we tend to contribute to hiking up the prices on the vanity/furniture pieces because we can afford them and we can't readily make them..
If you look at the MB prices, basically anything that a crafter may want but can't craft for himself (primal weapons, glam/furniture with super rare mats) tend to inflate a lot. What that means is that for any non-crafters, they have to pay more and more as time goes by because some people can and will buy rare items at a much more inflated price than before and again, their green gil income is capped, they don't earn more but items start costing more. I understand it's not a necessary purchase, things like primal weapons and bardings, furnitures etc. But that doesn't mean these people should go without a furniture, or save for 3 months just to get a couch. It'll just become harder and harder to obtain said items as time passes.
If you want proof of this, check the prices on things like Emperor's Throne, Ice/Levin Bardings, Crescent Moon pieces, etc. On my server, they all experienced a very steep price increase as more crafters were able to pay more for them. -
06-01-2015, 10:16 AMYeldir
Your teenage girl would hold up better if there was any accuracy to your halfhearted attack on my personal character, Kry.
Problems with your accusation(s):
1. I suggested a system that would unblock access to housing. You think my piddling 100k on small lots matters to the armies of people with tens of millions saved up for homes they aren't allowed to buy? You really think that the people reading this thread are dumb enough to think I'm in favor of blocking people from content?
2. I didn't accuse everyone of being selfish. I accused "a lot of people" if being selfish, and from my context of "haves" and "have nots", the accusation is specifically and obviously (to anyone with a brain and a pulse) levied against "haves" who want their homes to last forever, at any cost (to everyone but themselves), and damn SE's claims that their server architecture can't support thirty wards of empty homes owned by inactive players.
3. If you actually look at this thread, I'd say at least a third of the posters agree with me. Many more agree partially, but think that things need to be changed with different forms of upkeep and/or player eviction. Some of them have suggested good alternatives.
4. Elitist? Me? I'm like the Robin Hood of Famfrit. I give, and give, because others deserve to have. -
06-01-2015, 10:17 AMKryloI have to ask where this mystical player that never sells any drops on the MB is that Yedil (and now you) continuously mention?Quote:
Originally Posted by GenJoe
I can believe there are people that don't turn gear into GC seals and into items for the MB, but are people really vendoring all the filtered water, potash, etc. they get from dungeon drops? Are there people that just sell the fleece they get killing random adds? People who never sell any of the materia they aren't going to use from converting gear?
Like, okay, this is an MMO built to teach new people to the genre but selling anything you don't need on the MB, or at least checking the price before vendoring, is like. . . it's not even MMOs 101. It's more basic than that. It is the most basic of basic MMO things.
And the entire argument here falls apart as soon as the majority is selling anything on the MB, because as inflation happens MB costs outpace green gil and anyone selling on the board will easily notice this.
As memory serves, whiskers were added in 2.2 along with Thornmarch (Extreme), which would be almost exactly one year ago and three major content patches, while, meanwhile, a quick look through reddit shows their prices at being ~7mill (depending on server, 10k was the lowest I saw, followed by 5 mill, and capping at 10 mill) 4 months ago.Quote:
like Kingly Whiskers [. . .] That's telling me that the very first Kingly Whisker was sold for about 1/4th of the price they're being sold for right now and it hasn't even been that long, a few months
On Balmung, right now, a 'rich' server, they're still going for 7 mill.
So that's like. . . 0% inflation over 4 months?
Specifically designed so that only people with tens of millions of gil saved up can take advantage of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldir
As far as I can tell only you and GenJoe actually own houses in this thread. You're also the only people agreeing with your proposition and the only haves in the thread, both financially and housing related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeldir
The people that 'agree with you' do so on the stipulation that it be less than 5-10%. Enough that someone who had to save for the house could still make it, and only on the basis that SE is doing nothing and/or that people's houses get moved to instanced housing or something that doesn't make them just lose it if they can't pay.Quote:
3. If you actually look at this thread, I'd say at least a third of the posters agree with me. Many more agree partially, but think that things need to be changed with different forms of upkeep and/or player eviction. Some of them have suggested good alternatives.
Giving out 2 million out of 60 doesn't make you Robin Hood. Especially not when done while screen shotting to be used as an argument for how altruistic you are. I've given away more than that in gear and money and my total assets amount to under 5 million right now.Quote:
4. Elitist? Me? I'm like the Robin Hood of Famfrit. I give, and give, because others deserve to have.