Break the Trinity System Please

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Originally Posted by LeCard

I think giving the bard ballads that could up attack speed for the party, decrease enmity for near by members or such things and not have them drain mp rapidly, but drain based on enmity blocked/each attack used under influence etc.
after all, what job type is best suited to support than a ranged job?

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(Sorry for the late reply levelling Thief) I agree that Bard songs should be more than just replacement effects. It would be nice to see a wider variety of skills but I think for balancing issues, that would not work. I propose something similar but not unbalanced,
Say instead of draining mp, the bard uses mp and casts a song that lasts for a certain amount of time. So 30sec paeon, or 30 sec ballad. Also it would be nice to see new paeons and ballads with different effects such as what you mentioned, increased sub stats or perhaps even enhances healing or hp regen

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Originally Posted by Shadex

I said the 'most' challenging. Playing any class can be challenging if your team is not doing its job. If a tank won't stop rotating or moving a target so you can get proper flank and rear positioning adds challenge to a DRG or MNK. But that does not say that playing those classes properly is not challenging regardless. It just seemed rather one sided to claim that support classes offer no challenge at all. Play a proper support class correctly and they can be just as challenging and rewarding as any other position.

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Well, it sort of depends on how they set it up. I guess if they made it a complex rotation of sorts to keep certain buffs & debuffs up to the point where it was somewhat challenging to keep them all up during the fight while dodging/whatever as part of the normal fight mechanics, then maybe. But alot of what support has been historically is "is the buff or debuff down or about to go down? refresh" and there is less skill because it's something you can constantly plan for and just go through your buff/debuff rotation. Every other job is reactive in some way, which is where the "skill" comes from.

I wish.......

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Originally Posted by Jthreau

I enjoy the trinity system. It keeps everything fairly streamlined and allows for faster queue times. Breaking this system would result in 4 - 8 randoms jobs being thrown together for what would end up being an extremely unpleasant experience. I would much rather see support classes fall into the existing categories. Bard is an excellent example of this. They do damage while being able to support their allies via ballads.

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Brd needs to be expanded is the issue, I hope we see it as levels go up. Right now I would not call brd a support class. And I would put money on anyone from any other mmo calling it a DPS/DD class.

Give us
Defense + Songs
Attack + Songs
Skill Speed + Songs
Spell Speed + Songs

Hell non-regenerative songs can burn massive amount of mp so if they keep that up the whole party gets a 20-25sec dmg buff but all the mages mp is burned away.

I guess it would be possible to broaden what we have. But then you end up with an overpowered DD class in the end.

People complain about trinity but it works fine.

The problem with support is that unless it can cause failure or success, then it's irrelevant.

Tanks, healers, and dps all have critical roles.

Supports have no role. If their buffs increase dps, then they're effectively a dps class. Their buffs/debuffs will be balanced so the group does the same damage regardless of whether the group uses support or dps. Which means support is irrelevant and might as well be a dps class.

If buffs are needed for tanks and healers to do their jobs, then the tanks and healers are underpowered. Making tanks and healers weak so they need support just makes things harder on them. Tank and heal are already unpopular. Don't add support and make them even weaker and less popular.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

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Okay, I get your point on the "may as well be a DPS" bit, but then a counter argument would be, if the job is basically going to be a DPS class, as effective as one, and would provide a different playstyle than a DPS that some people would enjoy, what harm would be had if they added a support role?

So... basically what I'm saying is, using your train of thought, which I do not disagree with, if they made it no better or worse than another DPS through their buffs/debuffs, it would be providing a equal level DPS class with entirely different party mechanics some players might find refreshing and enjoy. I see no negatives to this. However in order for a support role to fit into a party set up, we'd either need to add them in a DD slot where it can only roll 1 support maximum (I.E you can still get 2x DD parties, or 1x support 1xDD), or increase the light party size to 5 or 6 to accommodate it.

At this point, with the 4/8 system so engrained into the game, I don't see a support type class working without some restructuring. Its not impossible, but there'd be a lot of balancing concerns to address first.

The question is how can they make support desirable? because of the mechanics support has to be able to fulfill 2 roles without breaking the game or making non hybrid roles obsolete. The only option I see would be to actually develop the cross system more akin to what XI's was. But that just seems like a very meticulous process Yoshi-P isn't trying to delve into.

It'd be interesting but the game really isn't built for it and I doubt Heavensward will change it, maybe by 4.0. The way it is now support abilities are spread all over every class, a lot of these are general use and can support everyone. Then there's also the synergy between classes like Dragoon and Bard, both Tanks supporting each other, and Monks supporting themselves.

I actually kinda like the way that works even if it could be expanded upon, still I wouldn't mind a dedicated buffer and debuffer. Dunno how it'd actually work say when you're soloing stuff doing leves and what not and DF queues would have to be changed to accommodate that extra support slot, that last thing sounds like too much work that could be worth it, but this game already puts minimum effort into a lot of stuff.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

Okay, I get your point on the "may as well be a DPS" bit, but then a counter argument would be, if the job is basically going to be a DPS class, as effective as one, and would provide a different playstyle than a DPS that some people would enjoy, what harm would be had if they added a support role?

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It messes up party balance. DPS can be interchanged to a degree; a DRG in place of a MNK or NIN is not going to drastically change the party synergy because you have a class replacing another in a role. You're asking to add the equivalent of a fifth wheel, and one that would make putting together a party that much more of a pain.

Let's also not forget that "support" has a tendency (on top of being difficult to balance and being either useless or mandatory) of being less populated than tanks and heals, which means that 30 minute duty finder queue would become even worse if you had to fill 4 roles instead of 3. Even outside of DF you have the issue of still requiring said fourth role for raiding. And because of the established pattern of support being less populated, you have a very bad scenario in your hands. Look back to the past existence of princess bards and princess red mages in FFXI if you don't believe me.

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if they made it no better or worse than another DPS through their buffs/debuffs, it would be providing a equal level DPS class with entirely different party mechanics some players might find refreshing and enjoy.

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So you're asking to be different for the sake of being different. Not because it's a needed dynamic (because it isn't needed), not for the sake of improving gameplay, but entirely based on a desire to do something different from the trinity. That's not a good reason to make any changes or inclusions.

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At this point I have to ask "why?" Yoshida himself has talked about sticking to the trinity. Reasons as to why that's a good call have already been covered. Reasons as to why wanting to shoehorn a fourth role for the sake of being different is a bad thing have also been covered, but some people seem to either ignore the arguments or simply don't care for balance and parity between jobs. It's really mind boggling.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

People complain about trinity but it works fine.

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I see what you're saying - and I agree, but it does whittle the range of potential the game has down to a very narrow and rigid system. FFXIV with it's roles right now is limited and I think they can loosen up a bit with encounter sizes, design, and group composition.