Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Just my 2 legacy Gil Cents..

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....my dude, the issues with your post that faiarrow went into beautifully aside, why on Earth are you comparing the in-game art style to the FMVs? Which were never meant to represent the in-game graphical capability, especially given *it's an MMO*, you simply can't pull off FF16-esque realism! You of all people should remember how 1.0 ran horrendously because they tried to cram more polygons into a Gridanian flowerpot than a whole roegadyn!

Also those are different characters. Left is Ardbert (granted, he's based off of Meteor Finalfantasy, *but it's still not him*), right is Meteor.

It's been more than a year, I re-subbed to catch up with friends.

I noticed some subtle changes on my characters face, definitely looks more like the old face, so that is nice - however some of the normal map issues were still not addressed.

My bug report from https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...p-edge-shadows that was marked as "unable to verify" still stands - the corners of the lips appear appear way too indented under any directional light, and cast a really weird shadow/light bleed.

The image from the above thread:

https://i.imgur.com/YplrPDk.jpg

The new image I made a few minutes ago:

https://i.imgur.com/3Dju9Np.png

I am glad that the eyes definitely got some work, but the lips, and corners of lips are still super off.

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Originally Posted by Sui-Kune

....my dude, the issues with your post that faiarrow went into beautifully aside, why on Earth are you comparing the in-game art style to the FMVs? Which were never meant to represent the in-game graphical capability, especially given *it's an MMO*, you simply can't pull off FF16-esque realism! You of all people should remember how 1.0 ran horrendously because they tried to cram more polygons into a Gridanian flowerpot than a whole roegadyn!

Also those are different characters. Left is Ardbert (granted, he's based off of Meteor Finalfantasy, *but it's still not him*), right is Meteor.

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XVI is also the only game in the series that actually seemed like it was going for photorealism. The rest were on a spectrum, but even the less technically limited ones were firmly in "anime realism" territory, where faces are stylized to be more expressive and youthful.

This recent Fanfest was the second time one of my screenshots has been a finalist in the Art/Screenshot contest. :) I'm overjoyed for that, and clearly I love this game! I love taking screenshots of my character and the wonderful sights she sees, and I love taking part in artistic community events and contests like this.
So I'm not coming from nowhere when I say how important the looks of the world and our characters are to us, and how I desperately hope our feedback can still be addressed one way or another.


https://i.postimg.cc/5yHjPPSV/SS.png

I had to find a "sweet spot" angle and use specific emotes to soften the brows that otherwise look uncharacteristically angry on her for this screenshot. Pre-Dawntrail, I could've felt she looked good (and like herself from ARR to Endwalker) from any angle, with any expression.
The more recent bug fix to these brows to thicken the inner half at least helped make this one angle look closer to how she is supposed to look. It would go such a long way if they had fully fixed the shape though, like examples I've given before in this petition.

They showed some features they're working on for future character creator upgrades, like makeup and more specific color picking. More flexible makeup/face paint options are lovely, but this doesn't address the discrepancies of shapes being different.
The shapes and angles of eyes and eyelashes, nose shapes, sunken in creases on the eyelids and undereyes where there were none before, lip shapes pretty much all across the board for everyone...

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Originally Posted by Tahli

F Miqo'te Face 2 Edits and Suggestions

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https://i.postimg.cc/cxsRvV69/Eyebrow-Edit-Please.gif
https://i.postimg.cc/G2PmL8kh/All-edits-7-5.png

Quoting my original Face 2 Miqo detailed post I made in here and adding updated edited gifs since 7.4 changed the eyebrows. (There were no changes to the face in 7.5, though.)


We need there to be features that are a more faithful recreation of the former shapes, depth, stylization and personality of the old features. We know they are capable of this from looking at faithful updates of NPCs like Aymeric and Emet-Selch. Of course it would be preferred if the current faces were updated to match the originals more accurately, and the "newer" look that we have now to be made additional options for those who like them. But even having more accurate recreations of the old faces put in as additional options would be better than nothing. I'd just hope that important NPCs sharing those features would be fixed to have their faces look the way that had for years prior to this update. Special mention: Poor Thancred, who is supposed to have a custom face anyway, but was changed to a default Hyur face looking different than he should.


I don't know what they may or may not already have planned for the future, but I hope the devs don't give up on this. There are so many people willing to give specific, detailed examples to help them show exactly what needs to be done for our characters to be faithfully updated, and exactly what we hope to see.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Before (6.x) and after (7.2 and onward), it literally looked/looks like someone outlined the pupil with a neon marker or Microsoft Paint. It comes across as very cartoony.

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I always assumed that, in this specific case, au ra have a racial feature in their eyes that either literally emits light or is so reflective that the only reasonable way to represent it is with a glow, so having glowing limbal rings on top of the ordinary ones everyone has is just how they're supposed to be. So when they stopped glowing as much in 7.0, that was in error. It does look a bit cartoony, but if they are literally supposed to glow in the dark, that's the only way to do it.

Though now that I think on it, I did adjust my au ra's limbal rings to a shade brighter red so they would glow more in 7.0. The glow was still there, it had just changed a bit. So it's possible the person you're replying to did the same thing. They've sharpened and changed the rings since then so they don't overpower the iris color as much now, which is a good thing. They may glow a bit more too--I don't pay as close attention to my au ra though to know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I always assumed that, in this specific case, au ra have a racial feature in their eyes that either literally emits light or is so reflective that the only reasonable way to represent it is with a glow, so having glowing limbal rings on top of the ordinary ones everyone has is just how they're supposed to be. So when they stopped glowing as much in 7.0, that was in error. It does look a bit cartoony, but if they are literally supposed to glow in the dark, that's the only way to do it.

Though now that I think on it, I did adjust my au ra's limbal rings to a shade brighter red so they would glow more in 7.0. The glow was still there, it had just changed a bit. So it's possible the person you're replying to did the same thing. They've sharpened and changed the rings since then so they don't overpower the iris color as much now, which is a good thing. They may glow a bit more too--I don't pay as close attention to my au ra though to know for sure.

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They were unaffected by lighting prior to DT, and the important NPCs with them, like Magnai and Sadu, have the same brightly colored ones used in the comparison screenshots. Ancient eyes, which are similar in that look like they're glowing but aren't emissive, have had the same issues with environmental lighting since DT.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Just my 2 legacy Gil Cents..

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I bet it's very enjoyable to think that each and every one of 348 pages was written by strange people who just can't put up with changes, and you are the only one carrying the torch of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

As people would say today: let them cook. Unlike us, they’re actually experts in design...

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Do I understand you correctly that this is the pinnacle of graphical design and nothing should be corrected in this image?

(very small ARR spoilers)

GU:
https://i.postimg.cc/vQnyqQGM/Captur...-13-43-214.png

This is the pre-DT version of the same cutsene.
https://i.postimg.cc/KzRc4T3C/Captur...-28-19-167.png
Source: https://youtu.be/zCrZJ5JKWO8?t=1550

Can't wait for you to tell me that this NPC's facial features and animations have greatly improved after the graphical update.

P.S.
People don't mind changes as long as they are faithful to the original, expand it, and improve it. That's why the reaction to the mobile FFXIV character design was so overly positive: because it preserved the spirit of the original with better polygon count and high-res textures. Unfortunately, it hasn't been done with the FFXIV graphical update; on the contrary, many features (mostly animations) have been made worse. That's why this thread is 349 pages long.

I strongly suggest you try delving deeper into the topic before passing judgment.

i hope the new highlander eye change is a bug and they will revert how it was before,
my character's eye shrank and i don't like the new look


https://i.imgur.com/H5riy3o.png

first is before, second is after 7.5

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Originally Posted by flower19

i hope the new highlander eye change is a bug and they will revert how it was before,
my character's eye shrank and i don't like the new look

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Oh it's a bug, and it affects Hildibrand. It affects Hildibrand in a very obvious way, like someone drew bright white circles on his eyes. Therefore, I expect they will fix it for 7.55 when they release the last Dawntrail Hildibrand quest. I'd be shocked if they didn't, though I suppose anything is possible. I just don't think that's something they would let slide when it shows up in brand new, unreleased cutscenes and it has been reported multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

I bet it's very enjoyable to think that each and every one of 348 pages was written by strange people who just can't put up with changes, and you are the only one carrying the torch of wisdom.


Do I understand you correctly that this is the pinnacle of graphical design and nothing should be corrected in this image?

(very small ARR spoilers)

GU:
https://i.postimg.cc/vQnyqQGM/Captur...-13-43-214.png

This is the pre-DT version of the same cutsene.
https://i.postimg.cc/KzRc4T3C/Captur...-28-19-167.png
Source: https://youtu.be/zCrZJ5JKWO8?t=1550

Can't wait for you to tell me that this NPC's facial features and animations have greatly improved after the graphical update.

P.S.
People don't mind changes as long as they are faithful to the original, expand it, and improve it. That's why the reaction to the mobile FFXIV character design was so overly positive: because it preserved the spirit of the original with better polygon count and high-res textures. Unfortunately, it hasn't been done with the FFXIV graphical update; on the contrary, many features (mostly animations) have been made worse. That's why this thread is 349 pages long.

I strongly suggest you try delve deeper into the topic before passing judgment.

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honestly when i look at those two screenshots, i find that even though the old graphics are lower res/drawn on, it still looks better to me, even more realistic than the new graphics. I find that the shadows and lighting in the old graphics have more detail and are less flat looking. not sure if maybe this is related to the normal or diffuse maps, but the new graphics on the other hand, while rendered, are very flat looking and the characters look like plastic. i personally feel that the new graphics are lacking detailed colours and textures that the old drawn on textures used to have. if they could improve that on the new graphics, it'd look so much better.


i've also seen multiple reports and close up screenshots of many faces/models literally missing the normal mapping or misaligned diffuse maps. you can't tell me this kind of stuff was intentional. it's clearly an error.


and the smiles on the new graphics are so unnatural, the lips look like they are puckering, not smiling naturally...it's odd.


random thought, I recently played through 7.1 to 7.3 on new game+, and i dunno if it's just me, but i feel like the details on eyes/lips on some NPCs, especially the unique models, look so much more detailed than our player characters. in many ways, when i compare screenshots of like Alphinaud or Sphene, they have some really nice texture/colouring details like around the eyes or lips, that my character doesn't have. my character just looks super plastic, is the best way i can describe it. the colours/textures are just too flat...this new appearance doesn't come off to me as more realistic, it looks especially awkward when the gear and environment textures have so much detail.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I always assumed that, in this specific case, au ra have a racial feature in their eyes that either literally emits light or is so reflective that the only reasonable way to represent it is with a glow, so having glowing limbal rings on top of the ordinary ones everyone has is just how they're supposed to be. So when they stopped glowing as much in 7.0, that was in error. It does look a bit cartoony, but if they are literally supposed to glow in the dark, that's the only way to do it.

Though now that I think on it, I did adjust my au ra's limbal rings to a shade brighter red so they would glow more in 7.0. The glow was still there, it had just changed a bit. So it's possible the person you're replying to did the same thing. They've sharpened and changed the rings since then so they don't overpower the iris color as much now, which is a good thing. They may glow a bit more too--I don't pay as close attention to my au ra though to know for sure.

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I had the same thought when 7.0 rolled out. My impression was that they wanted the limbal rings to have some glow, but it couldn't be done in the old graphics, so it was added with DT. however i do agree it bled into the iris way too much and with the pupils being so much bigger too, my character's eyes look like voids on her face...i'm glad they're making adjustments to it now though. i personally kinda like the glow on the limbal rings, and hope they don't completely remove it, but maybe they can add an option to turn glow on or off so we can pick as we please.

And so, it is revealed to be a compatibility update for switch 2 graphics.
A downgrade for platform compatibility.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Though now that I think on it, I did adjust my au ra's limbal rings to a shade brighter red so they would glow more in 7.0. The glow was still there, it had just changed a bit. So it's possible the person you're replying to did the same thing.

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I have not changed the limbal ring colour as that would make for an unfaithful comparison without a disclaimer.
And though I may not be saying much about the colour itself in general, I don't really mind that they appear lighter in colour when they glow more.

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Originally Posted by Tarath

https://i.imgur.com/MWVFL8W.png

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On the topic of limbal rings, as much as I enjoy the change on female Au Ra, it does bother me that they were made thinner on male Au Ra compared to the EW ones.
Nitpicky I know...

Reminder that your original WoLs are still alive, just trapped in the EW Benchmark :(

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...177cd196f0.png

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Originally Posted by Wildheaven182

And so, it is revealed to be a compatibility update for switch 2 graphics.
A downgrade for platform compatibility.

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We really need to let this argument die. Without getting too into technical specifications RE PS4, Switch 2, and weak laptops/PCs, this is just not a strong line of reasoning. Both Square and the community have identified several issues that are a result of improper implementation, and more are found consistently. Further, the benchmarks demonstrate the need for beefier systems to run ShB vs EW. See results taken today on my PC, using my regular settings with the same character and armor:

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Endwalker Benchmark
Score: 12637 Very High
1920x1080 My Settings DirectX11 Windowed
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 6-Core Processor
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER(VRAM 3930 MB)

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail Benchmark Ver. 1.1
Score: 9604 High
1920x1080 My Settings DirectX11 FSR Windowed
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 6-Core Processor
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER


Out of curiosity I ran the tests on my (non-gaming) laptop as well, with all settings minimized, and they show consistent results:

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Endwalker Benchmark
Score: 6431 Fairly High
1280x720 Preset 1 DirectX11 Windowed
11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1165G7 @ 2.80GHz
Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe Graphics(VRAM 128 MB)

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail Benchmark Ver. 1.1
Score: 3524 Slightly Low
1280x720 Custom DirectX11 FSR Windowed
11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1165G7 @ 2.80GHz
Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe Graphics

In the best faith I can put it (as someone who was overall very happy about the changes to my main WoL! I appreciate this thread for documenting the more drastic changes that I would not have noticed on others' WoLs, and everyone who has provided thorough and detailed feedback about the changes made), the graphics update has left several loose ends and the community has not received clear communication about which changes will be reverted to more closely resemble pre-update looks. We simply do not know the what, why, and when of the decisions being made (though I am fully confident in saying it was not a "downgrade for platform compatibility", as a regular PS4 slim player). Open dialogue would go a long way in clearing up the negative sentiment and reception from the community, re-establishing trust, and overall be good for productivity, and I will continue to advocate for it.

I still don't understand why so many people think the Switch 2 is equal or weaker to the PS4 when it's closer to a Series S, which comfortably plays FFXIV on max settings, 60FPS.

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Originally Posted by Wildheaven182

And so, it is revealed to be a compatibility update for switch 2 graphics.
A downgrade for platform compatibility.

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Seeing a lot of screenshots from XIV Mobile, I don’t think that’s the case. Mobile did a great job of character “upgrading” that preserved the original look a lot better, and that can run on a phone.

Ok, I can accept this.
The devs are just incompetent then, producing a graphical update that is received with mixed and questionable reception. We can call that a failure.