What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

My only major critique with the post EW story and Im sure almost all of you will agree on this take.

Is for the writers to never try to do a single narrative for post patch content again. It gets stale and padded out to quickly and them using FFIV for its basis hurted more in the intrigue that previous post expansion plots had with having different arcs in its story that ties to the next expansion. This one had none of that and its just now towards the end where the writing finally decides to shift to focus on Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

That's not exactly a contradiction. The Twelve weren't saved per say. Those aren't the Twelve's original bodies.

What I'm saying is why aren't they allowed to be remade into primal form like Venat...since that's clearly what happened? You aren't fighting their original bodies, but a primal made from their essence.

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I'm not referring to their bodies, I'm referring to the line of text from 6.5 which is about soul fragments after it was previously mentioned in various other sources that nothing would remain of their souls.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

People certainly keep acting as if Shb is the best rpg story ever told. And thats what sickens me

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Sure, though I can safely state that pretty much everyone I know who is critical of Endwalker is also critical of various elements of Shadowbringers. Particularly where rushed and scrapped story beats are concerned.

Most of the people saying that Shadowbringers is the best story ever are now saying that Endwalker is the best story ever...and I imagine Dawntrail will be given similar treatment when that's out, too.

https://memeguy.com/photos/images/mr...ight-91873.gif

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's rather weird for fragments to remain after being told that their souls were burned up, especially when multiple sources state as much. Including a story written from Venat's own perspective which is the image you responded to being quoted

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The Twelve were all autonomous beings created from Hydaelyn’s magic that were separate from her body so I don’t see a disconnect. I saw them as bits of her lingering magic. Like that quote you just posted says, the souls used in the summoning were converted into pure magic and she used the magic created from those souls as seeds for the creation magic that birthed the Twelve.

It adds more to the story that the Twelve have the tiniest shreds of personality of actual people that were Venat’s contemporaries. It seems odd to take an absolutist approach to lore in this game, taking one line from a side-story as pure gospel, when there’s been evidence that it’s not quite the full story for a while now. Especially since “how it was written before isn’t quite 100% the way it is” has been the way of the lore writers since ARR.


Also that story isn’t from Venat’s perspective, it’s from the Watcher’s.

Didn't Yoshi-P mention something about Venat having completely consumed the souls of her disciples?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The Twelve were all autonomous beings created from Hydaelyn’s magic that were separate from her body so I don’t see a disconnect. I saw them as bits of her lingering magic. Like that quote you just posted says, the souls used in the summoning were converted into pure magic and she used the magic created from those souls as seeds for the creation magic that birthed the Twelve.

It adds more to the story that the Twelve have the tiniest shreds of personality of actual people that were Venat’s contemporaries. It seems odd to take an absolutist approach to lore in this game, taking one line from a side-story as pure gospel, when there’s been evidence that it’s not quite the full story for a while now. Especially since “how it was written before isn’t quite 100% the way it is” has been the way of the lore writers since ARR.


Also that story isn’t from Venat’s perspective, it’s from the Watcher’s.

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It's not just the Watcher's own words, although that alone should suffice, but Yoshi's as well, where he goes into detail about how nothing was left of her or her summoners. This isn't about 'absolutism' but that it doesn't quite square with what we were told and I am pointing that out. If it makes sense to you? Great! I can also come up with ways to make sense of it! But at the same time, the contradiction remains and the fact that it requires such sense-making is the issue here.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Didn't Yoshi-P mention something about Venat having completely consumed the souls of her disciples?

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The souls were consumed and turned to aether. Parts of that aether were used to create the Twelve plus the Watcher and lent something of their identities to them.

I still don’t understand how this is difficult to grasp. The people they were never came back, their full souls didn’t return like was later expected of Zodiark. Their souls were used up and converted to aether and what remains are the dregs rattling around.

This has been alluded to for a while and isn’t something that they pulled out of nowhere.

Like I said before, it seems like people are just trying to come up with excuses to justify why they don’t like things. There’s no wild leaps of logic here and there are much more obvious and real and sudden retcons elsewhere in the story so I don’t know why people are questioning this specific piece unless you misunderstood, didn’t notice the foreshadowing that’s been there for over a year now, or are being pedantic.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

This has been alluded to for a while and isn’t something that they pulled out of nowhere.

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I assume you can provide the appropriate sources, then.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Their souls were used up and converted to aether and what remains are the dregs rattling around.

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Where was it stated that there were 'dregs'? Or are you simply assuming that they existed? How does that align with the previous declarations that their souls were entirely used up?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

the foreshadowing that’s been there for over a year now, or are being pedantic.

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Furthermore could you also explain, using the lore and not your own headcanon, how their essence will unravel, return to the star, and give rise to new life from mere leftover fragments that you are claiming have been foreshadowed to exist for over a year?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Didn't Yoshi-P mention something about Venat having completely consumed the souls of her disciples?

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He did, here's the quote in question:

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Q: Venat said that not even her soul would remain, but what does that mean? I’m really fond of her character and want to see her again.

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A: Souls are also made of aether, and she had used so much aether that even her soul was gone. Zodiark absorbed those who were sacrificed and was still able to maintain their souls within, whereas Hydaelyn did not have the leeway to preserve the souls of the summoners, including that of Venat herself. This difference was because Venat’s group was a very small minority compared to the group that had summoned Zodiark based on the Convocation’s decision. Venat’s soul, which was the last to remain, was used up in the trial against the Warrior of Light and their allies.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I assume you can provide the appropriate sources, then.

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I said where this has come up before in my first response to you on this.

To be more exact, the Watcher explains he has vague, broken memories from before the Sundering. There are 2 NPCs in Elpis who are all but explicitly revealed to be Ancients whose identities became gods and 1 of them later repeats the same exact line in her godly form. People have been talking about this for a while now.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Where was it stated that there were 'dregs'? Or are you simply assuming that they existed? How does that align with the previous declarations that their souls were entirely used up?

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In the same thing you quoted before where it was mentioned the Twelve have fragments.

Again, it’s not a great leap of logic to suggest that after summoning there could’ve been pieces of soul left that have a bare trace of identity left in them.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore could you also explain, using the lore and not your own headcanon, how their essence will unravel, return to the star, and give rise to new life from mere leftover fragments that you are claiming have been foreshadowed to exist for over a year?

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Originally Posted by Mikoto (Where Eagles Nest)

Every living being is comprised of corporeal aether of the flesh, incorporeal aether of the soul, and the aetherial residue of their memories. Were one to be possessed of only corporeal aether, they would be but a walking corpse. Conversely, entities comprised of only incorporeal aether are referred to in layman's terms as ghosts. In either case, they may also retain some of their residual memories. Of course, a ghost that possesses residual memories could likely recall its past and retain self-awareness.

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Originally Posted by Alphinaud (Unto the Truth)

Hmmm... In the past, when I sought to identify the true nature of ghosts, I came upon literature examining a similar subject. The soul was likened to a core that resides in the aether, and its presence is what differentiates us from such beings as sprites and arcane entities. Upon death, said core ordinarily dissipates alongside the aether that composed the flesh. However, it may be held together and bound to the corporeal realm, either by the will of its owner or by means of certain arts. In time, the soul may regather aether unto itself to assume another form, or find newly emerged life in which to abide.

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All life is made up of aether. I don’t know how fragments of souls would be treated by the lifestream but their aether would be returned to the lifestream or the world’s ambient aether (absorbed by everyone), but their aether will still return to the world and be incorporated by life. It’s not much different from a primal or a familiar except that there’s a soul fragment in there.

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A: Souls are also made of aether, and she had used so much aether that even her soul was gone. Zodiark absorbed those who were sacrificed and was still able to maintain their souls within, whereas Hydaelyn did not have the leeway to preserve the souls of the summoners, including that of Venat herself. This difference was because Venat’s group was a very small minority compared to the group that had summoned Zodiark based on the Convocation’s decision. Venat’s soul, which was the last to remain, was used up in the trial against the Warrior of Light and their allies.

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You’re using this as some sort of slam dunk that the writers are wrong but there’s nothing here being contradicted. The Twelve were made before Hydaelyn died and used up all her aether. The souls of the Twelve and the Watcher were not preserved, like you yourself quoted, they were fragments.

I really don’t get why you’re so obsessed about this or treating my way of thinking like a headcanon or a stretch to justify continuity.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A: Souls are also made of aether, and she had used so much aether that even her soul was gone. Zodiark absorbed those who were sacrificed and was still able to maintain their souls within, whereas Hydaelyn did not have the leeway to preserve the souls of the summoners, including that of Venat herself. This difference was because Venat’s group was a very small minority compared to the group that had summoned Zodiark based on the Convocation’s decision. Venat’s soul, which was the last to remain, was used up in the trial against the Warrior of Light and their allies.

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So retcon confirmed then.