That's very rarely the case and it does strike me as very strange when the posters accusing individuals of such are often the same individuals who have had sources linked to them many times over the months/years that they've engaged in 'debates' relevant to the story that either dismantle their points or at least show that something isn't adding up.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
Quite a lot of people in this very thread have a pretty firm grasp of the game's narrative and a simple look through their - admittedly extensive - post histories will reveal as much. It's really not difficult to work out which posters have a genuine interest in the story and who follow it right down to citing specific side quests when pointing out how the game often says one thing when it's convenient for the protagonists and something completely different when it's inconvenient to them.
The writers also aren't owed anybody's agreement, especially when they decide to tackle heavy themes and mishandle them. The game spent years having the protagonists screech and preach about how genocide was a line in the sand that could never, ever be crossed. Only to bend over backwards to declare that it's a 'necessity' when the pretty mother goddess figure turned out to be directly and indirectly responsible for most of the terrible events that have taken place in the story to date.
There's nothing particularly controversial about raising an eyebrow and criticising that.
At any rate, though this thread is rather large there's numerous posts that are sourced and written politely that showcase the thoughts and opinions of those who take issue with the expansion's inconsistent story elements. You're welcome to take a look through it if you so wish.
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07-09-2023, 11:57 AMTheodric
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07-09-2023, 12:06 PMVelKallorWhen referring to the text in UT I dont NEED references, I remember it clearly. ALL of it.Quote:
That's very rarely the case and it does strike me as very strange when the posters accusing individuals of such are often the same individuals who have had sources linked to them many times over the months/years that they've engaged in 'debates' relevant to the story that either dismantle their points or at least show that something isn't adding up
"Azems magic, you can use it to bring us back but you mustnt" - Yshtola ( as referenced in an earlier post ) , I paid attention. I read quest text. I listened. Previous posters have elided over that in their "fake out deaths" meme, ignoring the larger picture which...had they been paying attention to the MSQ themes, would know that at no time did Yshtola think she would 'die', she knew what was happening was to shape reality in a malleable dimension..thats the essence of dynamis.
..or didnt you read my earlier post?
From Reddit: who said it far better than I could:Quote:
Only to bend over backwards to declare that it's a 'necessity' when the pretty mother goddess figure turned out to be directly and indirectly responsible for most of the terrible events that have taken place in the story to date.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...m_content=PSR1
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Venat isn't perfect. But with the information she had at the time, and the future she saw through us, she had hope that humanity would be able to find a way to deal with the Meteion problem where the Ancients could not. The Ancients didn't have resilience, how could they? What trials and tribulations did they ever encounter? The Final Days laid one thing bare for them; they couldn't go on unless they could live perfect lives and to live any other way was to live in despair. The sundering at least gave us the opportunity to learn and grow and become resilient over our many lives. Couple that with our newfound ability to interact with dynamis and you end up with a very special group of individuals who are spearheaded by one person who has all the ingredients for a counter to Meteion; thinness of Aether, resilience to despair, and hope for the future.
Oh and "genocide"?Quote:
The Convocation, now tempered, was going to sacrifice the NEW life brought about after restoring the planet in order to attempt to restore those Ancients lost in the first two sacrifices and, after doing battle and attempting and failing to subjugate Zodiark, knowing His tempering would mandate repeated sacrifices in order to sustain Him, Hydaelyn sundered everything.
Doesnt fit, does it?Quote:
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Azem / Venat made a hard, horrible, terrible choice..but yes it was necessary.
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Venat had two choices: sunder the world and watch people die, or let her people try to pin all their hopes on the fool’s errand of Zodiark when half of them were already dead.
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07-09-2023, 12:13 PMTheodric
If you can't acknowledge that the complete eradication and deliberate destruction of an entire race counts as an act of genocide then there's not really much room to see eye to eye, is there?
The Sundering was very much an act of deliberate genocide and no amount of screeching or preaching from the protagonists or those that imprinted upon the pretty mother goddess figure is going to change that.
It's a statement of fact, not opinion. If you completely wipe out an entire group of people and then work to obscure any knowledge of their existence and replace them with completely different beings altogether...then that is very much genocide at play.
Much in the same way as how the Rejoinings would inevitably involve genocide as well. -
07-09-2023, 01:19 PMVelKallorOnly they were not eradicated, they were Sundered. Not the same thing, also ignoring the fact they were doomed anyway.Quote:
If you can't acknowledge that the complete eradication and deliberate destruction of an entire race counts as an act of genocide then there's not really much room to see eye to eye, is there?
OH dear..anyone who DARES disagree with you is "screeching". Goes to my point that this forum is an echo chamber. Cant have anyone argue with the hivemind now, can we?Quote:
and no amount of screeching or preaching from the protagonists
She made the only choice open to her, given all she knew and all she couldnt tell the others. Was it a good choice? Who can say. Was it necessary? Yes.
Hard times require hard choices, Theodric. Something I understand all too well. In your place, what would you have done? How would you have acted to stave off what she KNEW was coming, and whaty shue knew the Ancients could not stop? Meteion was a trainwreck started by Hermes, in his arrogance. The "perfect world" they wanted could not be retained, could not be recovered..any and all efforts they made to stave it off would have resulted in more sacrifices.
Note the above. Kill half the population...then kill another half..and another..and another...thats not genocide.....thats self immolation.Quote:
was going to sacrifice the NEW life brought about after restoring the planet in order to attempt to restore those Ancients lost in the first two sacrifices and, after doing battle and attempting and failing to subjugate Zodiark, knowing His tempering would mandate repeated sacrifices in order to sustain Him,
..and it had never occurred to you that, good god say it isnt so..YOU could be wrong? Or had that never crossed your mind? Its your opinion, not fact, as others like myself disagree, unless of course you are the one trying to shut everyone else up?Quote:
It's a statement of fact, not opinion.
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07-09-2023, 02:06 PMAwesomeJr44Agreed. It's odd that people would find it necessary to go out of one's way to defend it if it was of a high quality. Surely it would speak for itself, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
100%. That's not even something that can be argued against, that's literally the textbook definition of the word genocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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07-09-2023, 03:50 PMVyrerusIn so far as we know right now. You really think that the dragons just showed up in Meracydia, and were 100% accepted? The tribes banded together under them after an outside threat showed up at their doorstep. Not before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dikatis
What did those innumerable children eat? Who did they displace? You're not gonna get answers to that.
We are told the, "first men" didn't show up on the continent, at least within the Sundered's current record of history, until the 2nd Astral Era (and because of Elpis and the Ancients we know this record of history isn't without flaw/gaps). But before that, there was Sephirot's Treant race, as well as Zurvan's Reptile Centaur race. Zurvan's race can call down meteors.
You also seem to forget that St. Shiva had to work a peace before the Dravanians lived in any peace at all with man.
I'm not trying to say the dragons are evil. I'm just being realistic. In order for beings of their magnitude to live, they have to have space, hunting grounds, and uncorrupted aether. What bargains and accords were struck with Zurvan's race, if any? Given that they're reptilian, perhaps the dragons ensnared them in mind control, as they do scalekin in Eorzea. How about with Sephirot's treants?
Also, again, look at the entry you quoted's wording. "...dragons who also claimed dominion in Meracydia." That means to claim rightful rule or authority over a land. Doesn't sound peaceful to me. And even if it was, how much of that peace was bought with fear? Dragons, afterall, are unsundered beings from an unsundered star that are also physically imposing even in their smallest forms.
Have you no memory of Aiatar from Brayflox Longstop? It decided it wanted to roost there, and then took control of the scalekin in the area, and ousted/killed the goblins. Not all dragons are good, and they are more than willing to take what they want. -
07-09-2023, 05:14 PMKageTokageIdentity death is oft treated with the same weight as actual death, and some translations describe the Sundering as "ending their lives" appropriately. They were undeniably eradicated as a culture and a species due to the erasure of memories (Save for the "soul deep" ones) and the physical changes wrought upon them.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
And the "doomed anyways" argument Venat used to justify her decision is one of the chief things I take issue with because it's founded entirely on vague information, fears and worst case scenarios that were never allowed to even begin to come to fruition. -
07-09-2023, 05:37 PMRosenstrauch
I am legit surprised there are people who still think the Sundering wasn't genocide. You'd think these "The Ends Justify The Means!" folks wouldn't be so shy about acknowledging what those means are.
I guess the only thing that'll convince 'em at this rate is if Yoshi-P himself says it was. Fat chance of that—it's not a fun topic in the first place, and I'm sure he wants everyone to forget the Ancients and move on. -
07-09-2023, 06:04 PMRenalt
Has one side convinced the other yet? No? Keep trying lovers/haters of the story. One day you just might convince the other side.
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07-09-2023, 06:05 PMOizen
It was totally genocide.
Hydaelyn literally killed all of her people to make weaker more frail people, and then became the god of those people.
The funny part is the Zodiark plan seems to have fucking worked because it wasn't until we killed Zodarik that Metion started to attack Etheirys again.
Which means even in an incredibly sealed state, Zodiark was enough to scare Metion away.
Like I get this wasn't the developers intention with the events, and the takeway shouldn't be that Hydaelyn is an insane genocidal god, rather EW's story is pretty poorly written.