I think the Nyzul route is the best way to go. It would be better than what we have right now. Instead of (Blow up mobs > Blow up more mobs > Kill mini-boss > Blow up more mobs > Boss > Disappointed in loot.). At least lamp puzzles was a way to challenge your party and be on their toes. Admittedly the puzzles in Nyzul did fall under a pattern people figured out, but I think SE could of worked with more than what FFXI could offer on that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
I do agree also Garuda is a step in the right direction. However, the relic quests show that SE took a step backwards and fell over a coffee table. How can a system that works well like Garuda not be implimented into these quests? Why does SE believe RNG is the way to go right now? Why can't they come out and justify the reasons for using it? These are answers I want from them.
If Yoshida can come out of hiding and say why he believes this system works and makes a good counter-argument, I won't complain. I would like to see however if he can justify prolonging content by using this horrid system, especially after making something everyone was in favor of in Garuda.
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06-19-2012, 01:04 PMVelhart
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06-19-2012, 01:18 PMAsiaine
Now I'm officially depressed ; ;.
If it takes these really fast runs to win, then I am pretty much out.
1 -- I'm on during odd times and can not find enough people to go with consistently to be able to do it that quickly. Beat CC/AV: No problem. Do it in < 17 minutes... that's a problem. Even with content finder this will be problematic.
2 -- I don't like super-fast-paced-blow-things-up-action games. When did final fantasy become so focused on being fast and an action game?
Not giving up on FFXIV.. just giving up on content like this. Hopefully it won't be the theme for the majority of content such that I have nothing else to do.... -
06-19-2012, 01:24 PMChardrizardEven if they offer more, it will still fall under patterns which sooner or later will be figured out. But when it comes to teamwork sync test, things can go haywire even if you are following pattern if you are under a clock, while i believe that speedruns isnt the best, i have yet to see anyone with better idea/method to test your entire party skills, gear check, and raid awareness as well as speedruns does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
Regarding RNG, so far the only bad the lowest rate is only 18% from double melds, which honeslty isnt bad but i'd rather not go into this topic bc i can assure you some retard will come in here exegarrating this number like it has 1% meld rate or darklight droprate and they somehow know u can go 1/200, which isnt the case if you know 18% is more than 1%, but stupid ppl is always around so meh.
I am also not a fans of rng, i hope they could just make me turn in 5x mailbreaker that has been fully spiritbond but really.. Its just not as bad as ppl thought of if you double melded something before. -
06-19-2012, 01:32 PMMurugan
No. Garuda is not hard to speed run. Garuda is EASIER if you speed run it. Garuda is a finesse fight that requires people to pay attention in order to avoid specials, groups which can power through/skip Phase 2 have a much easier time as that is arguably the hardest phase. But even in phase 3 more clones/southern winds means your party is tested more.
So no speed runs do not make Garuda "harder".
Also AV/CC speed runs are not hard. An 18 minute speed run (which is as meaningless as a 19 minute 55 second speed run) not only is dependent on how fast you kill the bosses, but inane crap like how few clicks you get your AOE stops down to.
Oh and that too can be posted in a video or explained step by step to someone (in fact it is worse because you can basically tell people every action to perform from entry since AV/CC are so static). It is formulaic, it is boring, only it has the added bonus of being unforgivably nitpicky. It certainly makes it more taxing to farm, and harder to keep people interested in the content. So I suppose it is "challenging" in that way.
"There is nothing else they can do, speed runs are the ONLY way to make it hard!!!!"
Maybe if you have never played another MMO endgame in your life you might think that, but the truth is that burn fights are only one of a few types of endgame encounters. True not many MMO's apply that to the entire dungeon/instance but that is because to do so would be as annoying and tiresome as it has gotten in FFXIV. I WISH we had burn fights with rage timers, but that apparently is too hard so instead burning a boss is put on par with how fast your group can stand on a portal.
You can make definitely fights more dynamic to make them more challenging, like Garuda. Where people have to react to different situations every time they fight her (different wind phases, different abilities which are not strictly scripted and require you to react in different ways. That is what people praise Garuda for, not the Speed Run aspect. No one says "Oh wow, Garuda was SO easy the first time I did it, but then we tried a speed run and that is when the real challenge!!!!". In fact I'd wager the majority of people, even not counting all the people who exploited the bugged release got their first kill as a speed run.
Adds, incurable status effects, moving or interactive environments, randomized phases, I could go on listing off typical encounter mechanics which continuously challenge people to focus even once they "know the strategy" and yes I would hope that the people at SE can come up with new ones since that is their job and they are good at it. None of them is any less challenging then learning damage rotations for jobs. In fact fights which allow you to utilize a damage rotation are generally the easiest fights, once you know the optimal damage rotation you can pretty much go into zombie mode w/ it. The best endgame fights are the ones that break you out of a routine, and force you to play to the encounter.
Speed runs are lazy, and hopefully we only have them because they can't put more interesting mechanics in due to the current engine. It doesn't matter what MMO endgame you are talking about, speed was only a part of what it made it challenging, and the more damage you do the easier it always gets. That is how a DD contributes to any encounter, making it shorter and therefore easier. -
06-19-2012, 01:38 PMDeadRiser
Honestly, I think SE could change the difficulty of dungeons already in place every patch. Sorta how they change the way Chimera voice of the dragon or whatever works now. Or they could make the pits explode all the way to the outer edge of the ring instead of how they do now. To change up the difficulty every so often. I mean Ifrit can still be pretty random at times now.. I don't know, just talking out of my @$$ right now.
I think SE should have made you kill all three Primals with a class specific weapon then requiring you to luckily double meld it. Like wtf was SE thinking when they came up with this... they said hard specifically, not tedious bs that required luck. They act like the majority of us wouldn't stay if some of this stuff required some skill and we completed it already. I'm still here and seems like everyone else is. Why haven't they learned yet?
I mean the player polls even said that lol. Come on SE. Release us something that is fun and hard at the same time and not something that is tedious and required luck and an absurd amount of gil. It's cool that you made the class specific weapons be used to make the job specific weapons but actually make us DO somethign with them. Not waste gil to get lucky on some stupid double meld, then the weapon just be used away... -
06-19-2012, 03:34 PMJynxSame can be said of speed runs really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
It's a shame the proliferation of the internet kind of works against the MMO genre, while you would think the free flow of information would be a good thing it leads to more challenges when designing content. Nothing will be perfect and no system can totally be made to test a individual players skill or if they just memorized a video and it's step by step instructions.
I still personally think something other than speed runs is the answer, even if it doesn't test skill either I just find that. Finding out what mobs you skip and what ones you zerg to death is not a fun way to run the dungeon I understand it creates alot of stress to do things properly but I want my dungeon runs to be fun and challenging. Speed runs are counter-productive in the "Fun" aspect for me at least.
I'm sure alot of people enjoy stretching themselves thin and seeing how fast they can do things, that in itself is a challenge I wont deny it. It's just not my idea of how we should be rewarding people, because it sucks to go into a dungeon with a odd-ball party setup manage to beat it and still get the short end of the stick because you didn't go in with the "A" team.
I think even having specific tasks *Let's say multiple tasks made for all sorts of different setups* that are optional give a way to reward people who go in with different kinds of teams but are still effective. While this is no way diminishes the effect of Youtubing the content I think it's a step in the right direction to reward a broader spectrum of players than just the Speed-demon teams. -
06-19-2012, 04:22 PMKinseykinzJust a question, as I am not on this stage yet. Does it need to be 17 mins or less but with picking up all chests along the way, or can you skip past chests and just race to the end? Does anyone know or can anyone ask on the JA side? I don't speak/write in Japanese to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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06-19-2012, 04:51 PMTheFatHousecat(allegedly) Has to be 5 chest run, so you have to get everythingQuote:
Originally Posted by Kinseykinz
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06-19-2012, 04:55 PMKinseykinzGood to know...I guess. Was only hoping to skip one chest anyway as if we have issues, it's over that one silly chest. /mehQuote:
Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat
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06-19-2012, 05:52 PMAlmalexia
Confirmed it has to be 5 chest or you don't get (guaranteed) anything.
Blazed through AV before 43:00 on the timer and PT reported no drop. I was lucky enough to d/c as Miser died, so I didn't get to open the box myself.