Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by Bryson

your bar for "hardcore" is incredibly low then

I'd be happy to show you all the casuals in my daily ft reclears

just because you can't clear it, or chose not to, doesn't mean everyone who did is "hardcore"

the amount of time you spend on the forums, could've been on ft instead.

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We again run into difficulties in nomenclature. To me, anything that involves progging and/or scheduling is hardcore.

The critical issue, however, is the more people defend this content, the higher the probability SE will dump this garbage on you again.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This argument stems from the fact humans rarely take initiative. Let's take party forming, for example. If 100 people type /shout lfg, but none of them actually right-click and invite each other, then none of them took the initiative. In a similar way, if 1000 people try to join a run, but only 1 person organizes a run, then only 48 of them get to do a run.

So they're just saying that if people are struggling to get into a run then it may be that more people need to take the initiative to organize one.

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There is no social or in-game cost to randomly inviting people to form a group for a FATE or CE. Someone sees the invite pop-up, they click "yes" (or "no"), and whatever happens, happens. No one cares if they spend 90% of the time on the floor. No one cares if they bail as soon as the next FATE or CE ends. More importantly, no one cares if the nominal party leader does nothing at all except maybe invite more people as others leave. There is no need to herd cats.

On the other hand, a run that needs 24+ people to bring specific {jobs/items/whatever} and for all those people to know specific {strats}... that exists in a completely different world, one where a willingness to herd cats actually matters.

It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and tell everyone, "just organize and herd cats." It's a far different matter to actually be that herder of cats.

Honestly the discord server issue is beyond the point of what this thread was at this point, which is the content has such a bizzare entry system that even people who get a group can be screwed over by a myrad of options which then causes player fighting. Which honestly at this point I still don't understand why they thought it was a good idea, even disregarding the fact they "couldn't make a normal version".

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Honestly the discord server issue is beyond the point of what this thread was at this point, which is the content has such a bizzare entry system that even people who get a group can be screwed over by a myrad of options which then causes player fighting. Which honestly at this point I still don't understand why they thought it was a good idea, even disregarding the fact they "couldn't make a normal version".

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Playtesters likely had a much more forgiving experience in the sense they would have infinite ciphers, didn't have to deal with sniping, either with a command or as a constant could always just set the weather to tower weather, of being able to reset their knowledge level to 20 after deleveling, and finally easy access to different tiers of crescent gear.

As I personally can't imagine the crescent behaving the same for the playtesters. Like for example just sitting around for 30 mins while waiting for weather to change. As that sounds very unproductive for employee time.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Playtesters likely had a much more forgiving experience in the sense they would have infinite ciphers, didn't have to deal with sniping, either with a command or as a constant could always just set the weather to tower weather, of being able to reset their knowledge level to 20 after deleveling, and finally easy access to different tiers of crescent gear.

As I personally can't imagine the crescent behaving the same for the playtesters. Like for example just sitting around for 30 mins while waiting for weather to change. As that sounds very unproductive for employee time.

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That's all irrelevant. They had a thread just like this with around 100 pages for BA in Eureka Hydatos, complaining of the exact same issues.

It was understandable to mess up their first time making a new type of content. It was just really strange to repeat the same issue all over again when many of their developers are well aware of what happened with BA. Most likely they assumed Ciphers would make a difference somehow due to it solving the problem for Duels in Bozja, but it was an enormous risk to test that, especially without a backup plan they could enable urgently in an emergency patch.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's all irrelevant. They had a thread just like this with around 100 pages for BA in Eureka Hydatos, complaining of the exact same issues.

It was understandable to mess up their first time making a new type of content. It was just really strange to repeat the same issue all over again when many of their developers are well aware of what happened with BA. Most likely they assumed Ciphers would make a difference somehow due to it solving the problem for Duels in Bozja, but it was an enormous risk to test that, especially without a backup plan they could enable urgently in an emergency patch.

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I actually think its relevant in that I am explaining how its very easy things can get overlooked in a controlled environment for playtesting. Like again, are you disagreeing when I say the playtesters wouldn't be waiting for the weather to change like how it is on live? As if they can just hop right back in and test it again, all that lethalness of the tower goes down as it would just be like requeuing for DRS again in a controlled environment.

Blame the system, not the players.
The could be fixed if they just allow us to queue directly to Forked Tower instead of introducing bullshit randomness

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Originally Posted by Jeycht

nah you can be raise 3 times but you can raise anyone as much as you want as long they have a stack of raise. Edit: Oh sorry didn't get it. Yes indeed you don't want to kill someone because you don't know what to do when they are probably further in prog. (or clear)
The main problem is that if a group try to clear and are at last boss for exemple, the guy without any exp will maybe wipe everyone way before they go to the prog point.
It's like joining a pf for ultimate for last phase but having no exp past phase 1.

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Yeah they should be moving in the other direction. Pre made parties should be limited to a maximum not 48 but precisely 4, queued via DF.
Then you prog prog prog and you prog some more.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

I actually think its relevant in that I am explaining how its very easy things can get overlooked in a controlled environment for playtesting. Like again, are you disagreeing when I say the playtesters wouldn't be waiting for the weather to change like how it is on live? As if they can just hop right back in and test it again, all that lethalness of the tower goes down as it would just be like requeuing for DRS again in a controlled environment.

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I agree they can't fully tell how it will go once it releases due to their test environment having different circumstances. In fact, I would have used your entire list of justifications for them messing it up in BA - it was a new idea and a complete shot in the dark for them. They didn't really know how players would interact with it. Even though the possibility of problems was predictable, it wasn't guaranteed because you don't always know how players will handle it.

But the controlled environment doesn't justify it this time, because one of their developers will defintiely have said this in a pitch meeting:

Person #1: "Remember all the problems we had with the BA portals and how we addressed that with CLL/Dalriada/DR/DRS? What is better about your proposed solution that will allow the return of portals?"

Person #2: "We will have Ciphers like with Bozja duels. That way, organized groups can just buy 50 ciphers to guarantee entry. It'll definitely work, 100%."

Team: "Sounds like a plan! Let's do it!"

Any way you think of it, that conversation must have happened because team members were there for BA. And it doesn't seem there was any backup plan for this very risky return of portals.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I agree they can't fully tell how it will go once it releases due to their test environment having different circumstances. In fact, I would have used your entire list of justifications for them messing it up in BA - it was a new idea and a complete shot in the dark for them. They didn't really know how players would interact with it. Even though the possibility of problems was predictable, it wasn't guaranteed because you don't always know how players will handle it.

But the controlled environment doesn't justify it this time, because one of their developers will defintiely have said this in a pitch meeting:

Person #1: "Remember all the problems we had with the BA portals and how we addressed that with CLL/Dalriada/DR/DRS? What is better about your proposed solution that will allow the return of portals?"

Person #2: "We will have Ciphers like with Bozja duels. That way, organized groups can just buy 50 ciphers to guarantee entry. It'll definitely work, 100%."

Team: "Sounds like a plan! Let's do it!"

Any way you think of it, that conversation must have happened because team members were there for BA. And it doesn't seem there was any backup plan for this very risky return of portals.

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To some extent sure, but we also have a repeat of a fix that was also done for bozja. Remember back in the day? CLL could spawn during critical engagements and people would have to either sit a CE out or hope they could join in time? And the devs had to release a hot fix for it so CLL didn't spawn during CE. So what happens in the crescent? The same thing again, but with critical encounters and forked tower blood instead with weather changes.

As surely they would've had notes and experience from past mistakes that told them not to repeat mistake of spawning the special raid for the field op during a boss fate. After all, bozja may not be a complete shot in the dark, but it was innovating in different ways compared to its predecessor so things were to bound to fall through the cracks. But, with crescent, they did it again anyway. And the only way it makes sense, is on-demand tower weather to miss something so simple and similar to something they had to fix before.

And that is why I think we can be on the same page. Because otherwise it makes no sense how they repeat mistakes.

Like they had issue also a hotfix for phantom jobs. Because for whatever reason, they could be powerleveled the same way as how blue mage used to be leveled. Which we would think again, they would have notes on what not to do and have that wisdom of experience.